My 17 babies are 1 month today!

[Brooks_]

what i was saying is over 22% is bad i would recommend 16% for best heath and i would like you to cite where you have found that 20% is the best for chickens for their whole life

16% is based on battery conditions. I won't recommend less than 18% for any stage of backyard chickens.

 

[3KillerBs]

what i was saying is over 22% is bad i would recommend 16% for best heath and i would like you to cite where you have found that 20% is the best for chickens for their whole life

16% is what is used for commercial layers raised in confinement and bred for efficient production. It's not made to be optimal for long-term health but to support a lightweight production bird for approximately 1 year of laying life before she's culled without costing the farmer so much that it isn't profitable.

Many people here find that their dual-purpose and heritage birds do better on a higher-protein feed since they were not bred the same as the production layers and as insurance because their backyard birds get "treats" -- which often reduce the protein levels.

@U_Stormcrow is knowledgeable about amino acid profiles and such fine details that I admit are beyond me.

 

[Chicks in VA]

16% is based on battery conditions. I won't recommend less than 18% for any stage of backyard chickens.

well tell that to my very happy heathy flock that free ranges with only 16% feed

 

[Chicks in VA]

16% is based on battery conditions. I won't recommend less than 18% for any stage of backyard chickens.

18% is fine too

16% is what is used for commercial layers raised in confinement and bred for efficient production. It's not made to be optimal for long-term health but to support a lightweight production bird for approximately 1 year of laying life before she's culled without costing the farmer so much that it isn't profitable.

Many people here find that their dual-purpose and heritage birds do better on a higher-protein feed since they were not bred the same as the production layers and as insurance because their backyard birds get "treats" -- which often reduce the protein levels.

@U_Stormcrow is knowledgeable about amino acid profiles and such fine details that I admit are beyond me.

my hens are happy heathy and lay eggs a lot and use 16% protein and are free range

 

[U_Stormcrow]

what i was saying is over 22% is bad i would recommend 16% for best heath and i would like you to cite where you have found that 20% is the best for chickens for their whole life

With respect, Chicks in VA, you are mistaken.

and your source says

"Although constantly giving them high protein feed can damage their health in the long term, short periods of increased protein are necessary for the bird to maintain/rebuild feathers and health."

How you get from their "high protein" to your over 18% or over 20% or over 22%, I haven't a clue, but the great body of research does not support your contentions.

Not terribly surprising, as I've found TheHappyChickenCoop.com to be a source which repeats a lot of accepted wisdom, without seemingly understanding the science behind it. Unlike some sources (ahem, "Garden Betty"), I've not found the information on HCC to be harmful, just very generalized.

as soon as I get the pizza out of the oven, I'll start linking sources.

Do understand that the majority of research is focused on maximizing value of commercial management practices - there are few if any long term studies of any sort. But the studies of the 60s and 70s supporting the 16% PRODUCTION LAYER diet under commercial management practice was unconcerned with birds lasting beyound about 18 months, when they are sold to make dog food, chicken by product meal, and the like. So we have to accept the studies limitations, and make some reasonable inferneces.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Chicks in VA]

With respect, Chicks in VA, you are mistaken.

and your source says

[/QUOTE]
my sources say high protein for short amount of times and long term is bad if you truly read it and im just saying my group of 25 birds are happy heathy and lay eggs good

 

[U_Stormcrow]

my sources say high protein for short amount of times and long term is bad if you truly read it and im just saying my group of 25 birds are happy heathy and lay eggs good
[/QUOTE]

And I'm saying the research suggests that your birds are sub optimum - healthy, yes, but never living up to their genetic potential, due to a deficient diet. That's the problem with anecdote - you have no alternative hypothesis to compare against.

As analogy, consider the case of North Korea. A North Korean male, side by side with other North Koreans, will appear healthy and typical of the bunch. But if you put him side by side with his South Korean counterpart, he is revealed to be, on average, about 3" shorter and many pounds lighter - due almost entirely to differences in their diets - as genetically, they are essentially the same populations.

Same situation with your birds - you have no reference with which to compare them.

 

[Chicks in VA]

my sources say high protein for short amount of times and long term is bad if you truly read it and im just saying my group of 25 birds are happy heathy and lay eggs good

And I'm saying the research suggests that your birds are sub optimum - healthy, yes, but never living up to their genetic potential, due to a deficient diet. That's the problem with anecdote - you have no alternative hypothesis to compare against.

As analogy, consider the case of North Korea. A North Korean male, side by side with other North Koreans, will appear healthy and typical of the bunch. But if you put him side by side with his South Korean counterpart, he is revealed to be, on average, about 3" shorter and many pounds lighter - due almost entirely to differences in their diets - as genetically, they are essentially the same populations.

Same situation with your birds - you have no reference with which to compare them.
[/QUOTE]

i actually do for the longest time i feed them 18% and then with a different group of chickens had 16% and they are the same size

 

[U_Stormcrow]

How do you want to go about this? Do you want to look at amino acid levels (for which raw protein % served as an analog until relatively recently), and chek if your feed provides the recommended levels of Methionine and Lysine for your birds, based on modern science? Here's a metastudy of recent studies (layers). Broilers obviously need more, a fact not in serious disptute since at least the 90s. Our backyard flocks, with their (typically) dual purpose builds and (hopefully) longer lives would be anticipated to find some middle ground. Effects of Met and Lys on frequency of lay, egg size, and weight.

If you'd rather look at raw protein levels, this is a very interesting study on the effects of constant and variable protein diets over time, with numerous levels and feed programs tested. You will find that birds fed a constant 25% or 27% protein diet were approximately 10% heavier, while having less fatty deposits, than birds fed 15% and 17% protein diets, at similar AA profiles.

High Nutrient Density (in this case, 17.6% protein ) vs Low Nutrient Density (16.3%) diet performance on ISA Browns. The HND diet produced heavier birds, with less body fat, and lower clinical evidence of liver problems. They also had superior eggs, and superior bone structure.

Parental effects on egg quality (read the summary of other studies at the start)

Effects of reduced protein diets on long term layer performance (hint: not good)

The Shim Study (packed with good info)

Crude Protein and body condition/growth pattern in broiler breeders. (more breast muscle)

and just for the H E double hockey sticks of it, here's a study feeding birds up to 40% protein - hint, not good for certain bacteria, whose levels really climb at that point - but weren't an issue at 31.5% crude protein.

 

[Brooks_]

How do you want to go about this? Do you want to look at amino acid levels (for which raw protein % served as an analog until relatively recently), and chek if your feed provides the recommended levels of Methionine and Lysine for your birds, based on modern science? Here's a metastudy of recent studies (layers). Broilers obviously need more, a fact not in serious disptute since at least the 90s. Our backyard flocks, with their (typically) dual purpose builds and (hopefully) longer lives would be anticipated to find some middle ground. Effects of Met and Lys on frequency of lay, egg size, and weight.

If you'd rather look at raw protein levels, this is a very interesting study on the effects of constant and variable protein diets over time, with numerous levels and feed programs tested. You will find that birds fed a constant 25% or 27% protein diet were approximately 10% heavier, while having less fatty deposits, than birds fed 15% and 17% protein diets, at similar AA profiles.

High Nutrient Density (in this case, 17.6% protein ) vs Low Nutrient Density (16.3%) diet performance on ISA Browns. The HND diet produced heavier birds, with less body fat, and lower clinical evidence of liver problems. They also had superior eggs, and superior bone structure.

Parental effects on egg quality (read the summary of other studies at the start)

Effects of reduced protein diets on long term layer performance (hint: not good)

The Shim Study (packed with good info)

Crude Protein and body condition/growth pattern in broiler breeders. (more breast muscle)

and just for the H E double hockey sticks of it, here's a study feeding birds up to 40% protein - hint, not good for certain bacteria, whose levels really climb at that point - but weren't an issue at 31.5% crude protein.

Thank you. I'll look more deeply. But on surface. I was wrong about 24% being too high.