My Hens need more protein/thinking of starting a worm box

[centrarchid]

The cost of good quality feed rations are expensive and the time is limited for most folks who are still working. Birds that range pick up insects, seed, grasses, etc., so I don't see the point of ordering worms to farm yourself for an extra protein source, unless one has plenty of extra time on their hands. Boosting the protein levels can be achieved with dietary additions of buttermilk, canned fish, fish meal, game bird crumbles, or a starter/grower mixed in to laying rations. None of those previously mentioned are possible vectors for internal parasites.
Meal worms are raised in house or bought dried. Seems much safer to me.

You are going overboard with concerns about parasites.


I use mealworms that are reared in very biosecure commercial operations. Rearing from such stock or even wild caught beetles present minimal health risk to birds. Additionally, the larvae are expensive while with minimal effort you can rear a highly palatable protein source that for some promotes enjoyment of their birds. Look into how the insects are cultured before passing judgement on whether they are worth effort or not.

 

[Michael Apple]

You are going overboard with concerns about parasites.

Nope. Just stating facts known for a long time. If you want to argue your points, contact Gary Butcher, the professor and poultry vet from University of Florida, or Richard Miles, the poultry nutritionist and professor from UF.

 

[ChickensRDinos]

The cost of good quality feed rations are expensive and the time is limited for most folks who are still working. Birds that range pick up insects, seed, grasses, etc., so I don't see the point of ordering worms to farm yourself for an extra protein source, unless one has plenty of extra time on their hands. Boosting the protein levels can be achieved with dietary additions of buttermilk, canned fish, fish meal, game bird crumbles, or a starter/grower mixed in to laying rations. None of those previously mentioned are possible vectors for internal parasites.
Meal worms are raised in house or bought dried. Seems much safer to me.

I agree with the above posts that the easiest fast solution if you think you have a protein problem is to switch feeds to a higher protein feed but worms can be a good future treat and supplement. I don't know any details about the OPs set up but not everyone has the luxury of grass and free range space.

I personally raise meal worm for my chickens and do compost with red worms for the benefit of compost and also to feed the fish in my aquaponic system. I do not find either of the worm bins very much work (I would guess about 30 minutes each a week with an additional hour or two time on the red worms every few months) and I have both a full time and a part time job. I think it depends on your step up and your needs. I do not have a large yard with grass so the worms benefit me in a lot of ways. If you are already composting switching to red worms isnt a big transition. If not it might feel like more work.

The pro of farming the worms yourself is cost. Buttermilk, yogurt, etc are expensive and go bad. Canned fish, etc are also a cost. After the initial investment of worms (I paid $7 for 1,000 meal worms and $15 for 1,000 red worm locally + the cost of the actual bins) the red worms are now completely free and the mealworms cost me about $10 every 4-5 months tops on bulk wheat bran. I also will sometimes sell worms if I have extra time to deal with it which is not often. Worms can be fed at all life stages and never go bad or run out. The mealworms are in my house and the red worms in my garage both in completely enclosed and controlled environments. I love it but realize it is not for all.

 

[centrarchid]

Nope. Just stating facts known for a long time. If you want to argue your points, contact Gary Butcher, the professor and poultry vet from University of Florida, or Richard Miles, the poultry nutritionist and professor from UF.

I am a Prof in my own right and nutrition is core to what I do. Parasites are a part of life and can be tolerated at low levels, especially with backyard flocks. If parasite load becomes high enough to adversely impact health, then take steps to manage them, otherwise simply be vigilant and try not to cause harm by overtreatment. Over / improper treatment can result in more rapid development of immunity in the parasite populations of interest.

 

[Michael Apple]

I am a Prof in my own right and nutrition is core to what I do. Parasites are a part of life and can be tolerated at low levels, especially with backyard flocks. If parasite load becomes high enough to adversely impact health, then take steps to manage them, otherwise simply be vigilant and try not to cause harm by overtreatment. Over / improper treatment can result in more rapid development of immunity in the parasite populations of interest.

Which was the point of my previous posts recommending certain animal proteins, which are not only better quality than earthworms/red worms, they also don't increase the possibility of intestinal worms. It is just common sense to me.

 

[dawg53]

[/quote]
I am a Prof in my own right and nutrition is core to what I do.  Parasites are a part of life and can be tolerated at low levels, especially with backyard flocks.  If parasite load becomes high enough to adversely impact health, then take steps to manage them, otherwise simply be vigilant and try not to cause harm by overtreatment.  Over / improper treatment can result in more rapid development of immunity in the parasite populations of interest.
[/quote]
One worm is one worm too many. One large roundworm lays thousands of eggs a day onto the soil to be picked up by birds, completing the worms lifecycle. A regular worming schedule and rotation of wormers is best.

 

[centrarchid]

I am a Prof in my own right and nutrition is core to what I do. Parasites are a part of life and can be tolerated at low levels, especially with backyard flocks. If parasite load becomes high enough to adversely impact health, then take steps to manage them, otherwise simply be vigilant and try not to cause harm by overtreatment. Over / improper treatment can result in more rapid development of immunity in the parasite populations of interest.
[/quote]
One worm is one worm too many. One large roundworm lays thousands of eggs a day onto the soil to be picked up by birds, completing the worms lifecycle. A regular worming schedule and rotation of wormers is best.[/QUOTE]
Explain why I can get away with most of my birds having never been wormed and whose ancestors have never been wormed. The same birds have also lived on common ground with birds known to occasionally be afflicted by worms so environment is not worm free. My birds are in the peak of health and live long lives with a decade not being something worth bragging about. Birds not able to resist worms are culled from breeding pens and from flock shortly thereafter.



Explain what would happen now if you stopped worming your birds and what will happen if I continue with my current parasite management regimen.


Explain what will happen when your worms develop resistance to your treatment regimen and how my birds will be affected by such a development.



I realize de-worming treatments you advocate have value but there are others methods for controlling that can also be employed. With my system a light worm burden is tolerable and helps maintain resistance. When you suggest de-worming is the best route, please take time to indicate why and not be simply stating death is certain. At least a couple situations I know of are reason for exception to my standard worm management system. They might be worthy of consideration when the "aggressive worm them whether worms are causing trouble or not" is advocated with such vigor.

 

[dawg53]

I am a Prof in my own right and nutrition is core to what I do.  Parasites are a part of life and can be tolerated at low levels, especially with backyard flocks.  If parasite load becomes high enough to adversely impact health, then take steps to manage them, otherwise simply be vigilant and try not to cause harm by overtreatment.  Over / improper treatment can result in more rapid development of immunity in the parasite populations of interest.

One worm is one worm too many. One large roundworm lays thousands of eggs a day onto the soil to be picked up by birds, completing the worms lifecycle. A regular worming schedule and rotation of wormers is best.[/quote]
Explain why I can get away with most of my birds having never been wormed and whose ancestors have never been wormed.  The same birds have also lived on common ground with birds known to occasionally be afflicted by worms so environment is not worm free.  My birds are in the peak of health and live long lives with a decade not being something worth bragging about.  Birds not able to resist worms are culled from breeding pens and from flock shortly thereafter.



Explain what would happen now if you stopped worming your birds and what will happen if I continue with my current parasite management regimen.


Explain what will happen when your worms develop resistance to your treatment regimen and how my birds will be affected by such a development.



I realize de-worming treatments you advocate have value but there are others methods for controlling that can also be employed.  With my system a light worm burden is tolerable and helps maintain resistance.  When you suggest de-worming is the best route, please take time to indicate why and not be simply stating death is certain.  At least a couple situations I know of are reason for exception to my standard worm management system.  They might be worthy of consideration when the "aggressive worm them whether worms are causing trouble or not" is advocated with such vigor.
[/quote]
Unless your birds are up on wire and their feet dont touch the ground...they wont get worms. Either that or your soil is sterile...dont kid yourself.

 

[centrarchid]

One worm is one worm too many. One large roundworm lays thousands of eggs a day onto the soil to be picked up by birds, completing the worms lifecycle. A regular worming schedule and rotation of wormers is best.

Explain why I can get away with most of my birds having never been wormed and whose ancestors have never been wormed. The same birds have also lived on common ground with birds known to occasionally be afflicted by worms so environment is not worm free. My birds are in the peak of health and live long lives with a decade not being something worth bragging about. Birds not able to resist worms are culled from breeding pens and from flock shortly thereafter.



Explain what would happen now if you stopped worming your birds and what will happen if I continue with my current parasite management regimen.


Explain what will happen when your worms develop resistance to your treatment regimen and how my birds will be affected by such a development.



I realize de-worming treatments you advocate have value but there are others methods for controlling that can also be employed. With my system a light worm burden is tolerable and helps maintain resistance. When you suggest de-worming is the best route, please take time to indicate why and not be simply stating death is certain. At least a couple situations I know of are reason for exception to my standard worm management system. They might be worthy of consideration when the "aggressive worm them whether worms are causing trouble or not" is advocated with such vigor.
[/quote]
Unless your birds are up on wire and their feet dont touch the ground...they wont get worms. Either that or your soil is sterile...dont kid yourself.[/QUOTE]
At this moment everyone of about 120 birds is in direct contact with ground. With exception of a portion that were brooder reared for no more than 5 weeks, usually less time than that, they are in contact with soil year round. Many are simply free-range kept and they provide the least concern with respect to worminess. Worminess issues are most likely on ground with little or no rotation with respect to grazing pressure. Please explain to all why confinement regimen is very important.

 

[TOP KNOT]

HA! Lets keep all of our chickens in a plastic sterile bubble that they can roll around the yard in. Sorry I am a free ranger......I have very healthy and happy chickens that roam all day in the pasture, in the bushes, on the horse manure pile and where ever they like on our place. I am not sure how the chicken survived for so long without our intervention......