My lame story -- I'm overwhelemed and feel defeated.

[Donna R Raybon]

Electric fencing ha

s got to be hot, hot, hot. And extremely dry conditions, like real drought, can make difficult for animal touching fence being well grounded. LGD need at least a couple acres to roam. There isn't any real 'training' as they got the instinct or they don't. Some do not do well with poultry as they have too much 'eye' and drive to chase. I have had LGD for almost 30 years. Raised Great Pyraneesfor many years.would never even consider being without one or more. George is our current hero at keeping all safe. He is five years old, neutered, half GP and hall Anatolian.

Breaking a dog to electric fence either to keep in or out. Turn off charger and take sections of well greased foil, bacon grease is good, and wrap around HOT wire. Turn fence back on and let dog go stick nose/tongue to bacon greased foil.

I have seen small to medium size dog chew right through chain link kennel.

Your heart break I know first hand. Only in my case it was two of our own pet dogs. They are no longer with us.

 

[ChickenLegs13]

Well, you gotta build a good fence. If a small animal like a Llama can push over a fence, then it wasn't much of a fence.

Small animal? They are 400lb animals it doesn't take much to break most electric wires, robbins or fences if pushed against...

I know my electric perimeter fence will stop a Ford 9N or a slow moving truck in it's tracks (personal experience, lol) and running deer & horses just bounce off it...

I would love to replicate your 'test' and see if it held true, but anyway if that is true it's far from your normal electric fence, what gauge wires, kind of electric strands and how many strands at what spacing do you have hat it will stop a truck? Also what size post did you drop, what is the spacing and how deep that they can stop a truck?

And do you really believe most chicken owners are going to or should build a truck stopping electric fence around their birds?

I too wondered why Chicken Keith's Premier fence wasn't effective.

I don't wonder, it's simply not infallible...

Most electric fence problems are caused by poor grounding, bad connections, and weeds. My ground system is 3 rods spaced 10' apart, my connections are crimped and glyphosate takes care of the weeds.
400 lbs is small animal to me, picture a beef calf about big enough to wean. And his moma @ 1500 lbs and his daddy @ 2000 lbs. That's the kind of animals I fooled with for 50 years. Back then we used barb wire and woven wire but was constantly repairing it and chasing escaped cows & horses.

Feel welcome to visit me. We'll drink some beers and try to break the fence. IF you break it I'll just get out the crimpers and have it spliced back together in about 5 minutes.
I consider my fence a normal fence, it's Hi Tensile smooth steel wire, nothing special. You can buy it at TSC, the co-op, HD, Lowes etc.
Corner posts: 6" x 8' wood post set 4' deep in double H configuration.
Line posts: 4" x 8" wood post set 4' deep every 100'. Steel t-post halfway between each wood post.
Wire: 4 strands, at 12" 24" 36" 48" height, of 200,000 psi 12.5 gauge, breaking strength 1,500 lbs per strand, (Compare to barbwire & regular wire; breaking strength of 150 lbs or so.)
Wire comes in 4,000 ft rolls and costs 2.5 cents per ft. (compare to standard woven cattle wire @ $2 per foot.)
Wire tension is 270 lbs per strand. (compare to other wire which is installed @ 150 lbs per strand.) Tension is maintained with in-line spring and ratchet adjuster. Makes it like a steel rubber band. It will give but not break. If a tree falls on it and takes it to the ground I cut the tree off the fence and it pops right back up. It launches running deer like a catapult.
It's a stand alone fence system; no electric charger needed. I do have mine electrified to keep trespassers out, and to hot up my less-substantial single strand cross fencing that I use for rotational grazing of my horses.
It will contain any farm animal you put in my pastures. Except a chicken.

 

[MeepBeep]

My ground system is 3 rods spaced 10' apart, my connections are crimped and glyphosate takes care of the weeds.

Many people like myself prefer not to spray herbicides in or around our pasture or paddocks especially where our animals eat...

400 lbs is small animal to me, picture a beef calf about big enough to wean. And his moma @ 1500 lbs and his daddy @ 2000 lbs. That's the kind of animals I fooled with for 50 years. Back then we used barb wire and woven wire but was constantly repairing it and chasing escaped cows & horses.

Sure 400lbs is smaller than a cow, but that doesn't make it small... Do you consider a black bear, lion or tiger that can all be in around the 400lb range to be small animals? If so what is something like a large breed dog, a grey wolf,, coyote or mountain lion a mini animal?

Corner posts: 6" x 8' wood post set 4' deep in double H configuration.
Line posts: 4" x 8" wood post set 4' deep every 100'. Steel t-post halfway between each wood post.

So you have 100 foot spacing of post with a single T-post 50' on center and you want me to believe it would stop a truck? Sorry not buying that, I place my T-post 10 feet on center with 5" round wood post every 50 feet and I certainly would not claim that it would stop a truck...

Wire: 4 strands, at 12" 24" 36" 48" height, of 200,000 psi 12.5 gauge, breaking strength 1,500 lbs per strand, (Compare to barbwire & regular wire; breaking strength of 150 lbs or so.)
Wire comes in 4,000 ft rolls and costs 2.5 cents per ft. (compare to standard woven cattle wire @ $2 per foot.)

At 48" tall my llama would hop over it without effort and coyotes can also clear jump a 48" fence with ease, yet you suggest it's fool proof and will contain or keep out anything? And with the first strand 12" of the ground why would a predator even a common domestic dog or even the chickens not simply not go under the bottom strand? Sorry, but to be blunt if you believe it "will keep anything in or out." as you describe you are kidding yourself... The OP is having a dog problem and i highly doubt your fence design would be effective and eliminated predators form gaining entry...

With 1 foot spacing and the 'give' you suggest so it doesn't snap, I'm willing to bet my llama would squeeze between the upper 12" spaced strands, this was the problem the previous owner faced even when electrified as the llamas fur insulates it from being shocked...

It launches running deer like a catapult.

Deer in my area don't run into fences they jump them and 48" isn't even a mole hill challenge for them to bounce over...

It will contain any farm animal you put in my pastures. Except a chicken.

I fully beg to differ, my llamas could easily hop over and it would offer zero resistance to containing my ducks, chickens, guineafowl or peafowl let alone many other small farm animals... And it alone would be utterly useless against pretty much every predator threat in my area... Might work great to contain cattle or horses but those two animals hardly qualify as 'any farm animal' nor are they common predators that would try to gain entry...

 

[Shezadandy]

Our known, each and every daily chicken threats include our own farm cat and the dog across the street that somehow they can't keep on THEIR 5 acres.
The cat kills full grown rabbits, squirrels, gophers, moles, birds, mice, rats-- all of which we're witnessed, so he's the biggest problem.
The neighbor dog enjoys frequenting my property, terrorizing my goats and has come within a couple feet of killing the farm cat, and that's after firm but polite conversations with promises that it won't happen again.

Either would have a field day with the chickens. The other threats are hawks, coyotes, raccoons, skunks, owls and other critters I'm not thinking of at the moment and some I don't know about.

We were lucky enough to have a 30x30ft 6ft chain link pen with posts set in concrete when we bought the place. That area is occupied by the goats, so we built another run around it in an L shape for the chickens. Some of the chain link panels are rounded at the bottom- those were here and attached to our pump house that the previous people used as a coop. We bought 2 of the dog kennel run panels that have top rail and bottom rail and are rectangles, no rounded edges. Half the run is under huge trees with lots of rock in the soil, so trying to set 4x4 posts in the ground wasn't feasible. We also wanted some portability. To anchor the fence, we used 8ft t-posts driven 2ft in the ground.

For the exterior portion of this run, i.e. the part not bordered by the existing pen, we wove 4ft tall 1/2" hardware cloth into the chain link on the side the chickens inhabit. When I say wove, I mean at least every foot with continuous steel wire, and we did that top and bottom, on top of all the regular attachments of chain link to the frame. For the shared border, we used 3ft 1/2" hardware cloth the same way. That helped seal off the older kind of chain link run with those rounded corners. Not inexpensive, but it reinforces the chain link of the newer dog kennels which isn't great quality, fills in awkward spots, and prevents predators from grabbing chickens through the chain link. The black slats are there to help break up the south wind and make a shady spot in that part of the run and have NOTHING to do with predator control!!! Over every inch of the top, we installed hawk net. We did 2 rectangles so the one 'seam' is a complete overlap of 15+ feet of netting both ways, so not really a seam at all.





My idea of a functional electric fence is one that makes you involuntarily scream, i.e, as you're screaming you think to yourself, "Who's making THAT noise?"

On the outside of the chicken run, there are 2 layers of electric wire. I don't have pictures of that right now because these were taken before. Layer 1 is attached to the chain link fence itself using chain link insulators, the kind that pop onto chain link like t-post insulators pop onto t-posts. I've got it as low as it will go on the chain link itself with the next 4 layers up being 4" or so apart, then every 12 or so up to 5 feet. The 2nd layer goes on t-posts at roughly the same intervals but staggered, about 1 foot away from the chain link. Then if something makes it past the outer layer, it probably hits the chain link layer AND gets another tickle from the t-post layer on its way out. Also, I've got t-post top insulators for those 8 ft t-posts anchoring the chain link- makes a 6ft+ high line around the perimeter just above the top rail. .

There are still plenty of things that could be done with our set up but at some point it does have to be enough and there are calculated risks. We also walk around the whole thing every day looking for digging - but some predator might one day dig under during the day, not get shocked - and the worst could still happen. That's the downside of having small prey animals we love. Still, I'd rather have them mining for bugs and digging to their hearts content than have hardware cloth under their feet. I know in my situation, true free ranging would lead to very bad and near immediate losses, so I've done the best I can for them within the confines of budget and time and know they've got a pretty good life.

More about electric ...

The single most important tool for electric wire/fencing is a fence tester. It will tell you if something is wrong and takes mere seconds to check. Another good tool is a cut-out switch so if you're working in a certain area you can turn just that off without disabling the whole system, usually $7-10. There are other ways to accomplish that for less, but it's convenient.

As other posters have mentioned, proper grounding can't be overstated. In dry weather plan to soak the dirt where your grounding rods are to keep the electric hot. Don't pound them into the ground under the eave of the barn or other perpetually dry location, or if it's there, again, keep it moist.

Personally I like working with polywire because I'm not relying on electric to physically contain my animals (except interior pasture divider as pictured below), so wire strength isn't an issue in my setup. There are no special tools to tighten it and it fits in all the regular wire insulators. Polytape flops over and all the connectors etc are significantly more $$. Polywire (the black and white stuff) is reasonable in cost, especially if you watch for sales, more visible than regular wire, and in my experience rarely requires tightening. The sky's the limit in terms of how you decide to use it.

Everywhere except for the chicken run I use the electric fence to keep my animals off the chain link, horse no-climb, and goat/sheep fence, not so much predators out, because that's what the mesh fencing material is for. After we'd fenced in the first goat area as described, a different neighbor dog jumped straight through their polytape fence and had I only had electric, at the speed it was going, momentum alone would have negated any shock that dog would have gotten- it would have been inside the pen. As it is, both neighbor dogs smash their faces into my mesh fence trying to get to my animals. Yes, exterior electric is on the list as is listening for that first doggie scream... anyway, the mesh fence prevents what would have been a bad attack. It was a good thing to see before we set about fencing the big pasture, which was originally going to just be electric.

Having a nice hot wire on top also helps keep people from reaching over to touch the animals. One enclosure is by the road and I enjoy listening to people walk where they shouldn't be and stick their hands over ... yes, it's legal where I am, not residential ... and they are trespassing ... and approaching my animals without permission ...

The chain link insulators are show in the first picture below. They come in 2 1/2 or 3" and 5 inch. Pictured are 5", both have their place, it depends on your fence. The insulator picture is on the goat side, keeps them off the fence, nothing to do with predators. They learned as babies that the fence bites back- so as 250lb and 175lb adults, they're very respectful, but I still don't fence them with only electric. The only spot that electric is the sole divider is in our pasture. The pasture is 5ft horse no-climb with 4 layers of polywire and a single top layer of polytape for visibility. Every once in a while I come out to a goat in the wrong pasture section, but never outside the pasture.


The deer are perfectly capable of jumping in and out of my 5ft horse fence. My neighbors regularly have their electric-only poly tape fence pulled down by deer. The previous owners with their plain wire electric (un-useable after a decade of neglect anyways) also regularly had their electric wire fence pulled down by deer and plowed through by their cows. Since putting in the no-climb, I've never once had a problem with deer damage, but I assume that's because they see it well and jump it or avoid it all together. I would feel comfortable using a chicken tractor within my pasture so long as it was covered to keep the chickens in and hawks out. It will have (also low on the list) its own electric on the outside, hooked into my pasture fence wherever it might be that day.

Chain link insulators Pasture Fence, interior dividers -- Pasture fence, exterior perimeter

 

[centrarchid]

Dogs (two stray labs) wiped out my flock of 6 Marans (except for one roo) in Feb 2012.  My birds were protected really only by a Premier1 electric net fence.  Since I hatched my 6 marans in April 2011, the fence did it's job for a good while.

In Aug 2014 a skunk raided my chicken house killing 1 baby turkey poult under a mama chicken each night for 4 nights.  I had 5 poults, I managed to save one.  I killed the skunk.  No more poults killed.

In July 2015, with a flock of beautiful breeder Marans, two Husky dogs (neighbor's breeders) wiped out 22 of my 32 birds, in a killing frenzy that my wife interdicted while I was at work.  I got to come home to feathers and bodies strewn about the yard.  Too many to bury, my son and I got the gasoline, lit the brush pile and threw birds on in a pyre.

Even after all this, I was still using the Premier1 fence.  I was in denial, I loved that solution, I wasn't changing.  How stupid!

Then Fri Jan 29th 2016, I came home from work, to find 6 of my remaining 10 birds killed again, obviously by a dog or dogs.  These 6 birds were to be used as my seed stock to get my Marans breeding going again.

I'm not going to go into the details of the relationship between my neighbor (who is not a next door type, but she lives in a subdivision over several hundred yards away) and me, nor how the police got involved.  That's not the purpose of this post.  My purpose is to get your thoughts on how I can rest peacefully, knowing my birds can have maximum ranging.

Then in March 2016, a hawk got one of my 3 week old Cornish Rock broilers (not only do I have pet Marans, but I raise meat birds for the freezer too).  A game bird netting top cover was now necessary.  ARGHHH!

So, I ditched the Premier1 fence in favor of 10x6ft dog kennel panels from Tractor supply.  A very expensive proposition.  My backyard looks like Guantanamo prison now!

But chain link fencing does not prevent wild critters from gaining access.  It prevents dogs (my biggest threat until now) but it does not deter raccoons or possums who can sneak through the bottom of the seams if the panels have curved corners (understand this?).  Squirrels who don't pose a threat to my birds easily get in and eat their feed.  That's not a big problems but squirrels can do a number on game bird netting on the top of the pens.

Raccoons got in and obviously molested my turkeys, not killing them, but terrorizing them and there were feathers everywhere like the birds had been in a chicken fight.

Ok, now my point--sorry for the long story.  I think I need to return to an electric fence solution.  It is effective on the wild predators.  It doesn't do squat to a domestic dog who just wants to play with a bird to death.  But I need an electric fence PLUS the Guantanamo War on Terror style prisons, to form layers of security.  BUT, I have seen some people put electric fencing around pens, 6inches from the ground and held out 6 inches from the chain link.  Does anyone do this?

Also, I'm packing more heat now.  The final thing is I have not resorted to a livestock guard dog.  I'm very intimidated by this, time in training and worry of training failure and failure to keep FIDO home, like so many LGD owners have a problem with.  Your thoughts are welcomed.

I have had much the same fun you have had. I killed a neighbors dog and played a significant role in dispatching others. I use poultry netting, standard hotwire and even have my own dogs. My setup has evolved to have layers with chickens either in the middle or in separate pens. I even have "expendable" birds that free-range serving as an alarm and barometer when predator management systems are in need of tweaking. I am a breeder with a closed flock so also can empathize on losses of broodfowl. My core has a perimeter of poultry netting with another perimeter of hotwire about a foot outside of it. Only owls have penetrated that and brood fowl are in owl proof pens within the core. Some of my expendable birds are several years old so system works reasonably well. Problem area currently is the barn which is too close to property perimeter resulting in my layers being too compressed and my dogs too stretched to protect from snatch and grab, Correction will involve additional poultry netting and elimination of feral cats with a taste for chicks.

 

[ChickenLegs13]

My ground system is 3 rods spaced 10' apart, my connections are crimped and glyphosate takes care of the weeds.

Many people like myself prefer not to spray herbicides in or around our pasture or paddocks especially where our animals eat...

400 lbs is small animal to me, picture a beef calf about big enough to wean. And his moma @ 1500 lbs and his daddy @ 2000 lbs. That's the kind of animals I fooled with for 50 years. Back then we used barb wire and woven wire but was constantly repairing it and chasing escaped cows & horses.

Sure 400lbs is smaller than a cow, but that doesn't make it small... Do you consider a black bear, lion or tiger that can all be in around the 400lb range to be small animals? If so what is something like a large breed dog, a grey wolf,, coyote or mountain lion a mini animal?

Corner posts: 6" x 8' wood post set 4' deep in double H configuration.
Line posts: 4" x 8" wood post set 4' deep every 100'. Steel t-post halfway between each wood post.

So you have 100 foot spacing of post with a single T-post 50' on center and you want me to believe it would stop a truck? Sorry not buying that, I place my T-post 10 feet on center with 5" round wood post every 50 feet and I certainly would not claim that it would stop a truck...

Wire: 4 strands, at 12" 24" 36" 48" height, of 200,000 psi 12.5 gauge, breaking strength 1,500 lbs per strand, (Compare to barbwire & regular wire; breaking strength of 150 lbs or so.)
Wire comes in 4,000 ft rolls and costs 2.5 cents per ft. (compare to standard woven cattle wire @ $2 per foot.)

At 48" tall my llama would hop over it without effort and coyotes can also clear jump a 48" fence with ease, yet you suggest it's fool proof and will contain or keep out anything? And with the first strand 12" of the ground why would a predator even a common domestic dog or even the chickens not simply not go under the bottom strand? Sorry, but to be blunt if you believe it "will keep anything in or out." as you describe you are kidding yourself... The OP is having a dog problem and i highly doubt your fence design would be effective and eliminated predators form gaining entry...

With 1 foot spacing and the 'give' you suggest so it doesn't snap, I'm willing to bet my llama would squeeze between the upper 12" spaced strands, this was the problem the previous owner faced even when electrified as the llamas fur insulates it from being shocked...

It launches running deer like a catapult.

Deer in my area don't run into fences they jump them and 48" isn't even a mole hill challenge for them to bounce over...

It will contain any farm animal you put in my pastures. Except a chicken.

I fully beg to differ, my llamas could easily hop over and it would offer zero resistance to containing my ducks, chickens, guineafowl or peafowl let alone many other small farm animals... And it alone would be utterly useless against pretty much every predator threat in my area... Might work great to contain cattle or horses but those two animals hardly qualify as 'any farm animal' nor are they common predators that would try to gain entry...

OK, if you say so.
You should go back and read my post again. You may have missed some little detail that you can pick apart and argue about.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Dogs (two stray labs) wiped out my flock of 6 Marans (except for one roo) in Feb 2012. My birds were protected really only by a Premier1 electric net fence. Since I hatched my 6 marans in April 2011, the fence did it's job for a good while.

In Aug 2014 a skunk raided my chicken house killing 1 baby turkey poult under a mama chicken each night for 4 nights. I had 5 poults, I managed to save one. I killed the skunk. No more poults killed.

In July 2015, with a flock of beautiful breeder Marans, two Husky dogs (neighbor's breeders) wiped out 22 of my 32 birds, in a killing frenzy that my wife interdicted while I was at work. I got to come home to feathers and bodies strewn about the yard. Too many to bury, my son and I got the gasoline, lit the brush pile and threw birds on in a pyre.

Even after all this, I was still using the Premier1 fence. I was in denial, I loved that solution, I wasn't changing. How stupid!

Then Fri Jan 29th 2016, I came home from work, to find 6 of my remaining 10 birds killed again, obviously by a dog or dogs. These 6 birds were to be used as my seed stock to get my Marans breeding going again.

I'm not going to go into the details of the relationship between my neighbor (who is not a next door type, but she lives in a subdivision over several hundred yards away) and me, nor how the police got involved. That's not the purpose of this post. My purpose is to get your thoughts on how I can rest peacefully, knowing my birds can have maximum ranging.

Then in March 2016, a hawk got one of my 3 week old Cornish Rock broilers (not only do I have pet Marans, but I raise meat birds for the freezer too). A game bird netting top cover was now necessary. ARGHHH!

So, I ditched the Premier1 fence in favor of 10x6ft dog kennel panels from Tractor supply. A very expensive proposition. My backyard looks like Guantanamo prison now!

But chain link fencing does not prevent wild critters from gaining access. It prevents dogs (my biggest threat until now) but it does not deter raccoons or possums who can sneak through the bottom of the seams if the panels have curved corners (understand this?). Squirrels who don't pose a threat to my birds easily get in and eat their feed. That's not a big problems but squirrels can do a number on game bird netting on the top of the pens.

Raccoons got in and obviously molested my turkeys, not killing them, but terrorizing them and there were feathers everywhere like the birds had been in a chicken fight.

Ok, now my point--sorry for the long story. I think I need to return to an electric fence solution. It is effective on the wild predators. It doesn't do squat to a domestic dog who just wants to play with a bird to death. But I need an electric fence PLUS the Guantanamo War on Terror style prisons, to form layers of security. BUT, I have seen some people put electric fencing around pens, 6inches from the ground and held out 6 inches from the chain link. Does anyone do this?

Also, I'm packing more heat now. The final thing is I have not resorted to a livestock guard dog. I'm very intimidated by this, time in training and worry of training failure and failure to keep FIDO home, like so many LGD owners have a problem with. Your thoughts are welcomed.

The best solution is to add a 5 or 6 strand electric fence to the outside of the dog kennel panels. Use standoff insulators so that you don't need to worry too much about the fence shorting out or running to ground on the existing fence unless a varmint touches it. This needs to be backed up or powered by an electric fence charger with some serious Joules. Nothing less than a charger rated for 10 miles of fence. If you are unfamiliar with the preceding term Google it. Dogs are intelligent animals and I can not envision any dog that got bit by an electric fence one time who will return for a second lesson.

Well almost any dog:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...4E58111DFE0BFEE097354E581&fsscr=0&FORM=VDQVAP

 

[Chicken Keith]

Thanks everyone for all your inputs. Every single one of ya, for taking the time to respond. We are kindred spirits, we are. Everybody hang in there.