my st bernard/limping when getting up for a couple months at least????

[dutchhollow]

"which they denied this being they said no xrays cause a waste of money and not gonna show you anything cause she is not fully developed."

I think your vets gave you some good advice on the feed, but actually they really shouldn't need any supplements. All of my dogs are on purina pro plan preformance from weaning until death, no problems, no I don't have giants, but german shorthairs. But the companies that have been around a long time (I am speaking of purina here) have invested billions of dollars and decades of time into research, that I trust. Many, many people raised heathy saints long before all the large breed puppy food came on the market.

But the advice about the xray is crap. You can tell if you pup is dyplastic through a simple xray with no need to send it to ofa, and a good orthopeadic vet can usually palpate and give you a pretty good idea, but get a simple xray done for peace of mind. I have seen pups of many breeds (goldens and rotties come to mind as a few) where the dogs were cripples at 9 months, no need to wait till 2. Also penn hip can be done at 16 weeks. No need to sit around and wonder, get the xray and plan a course of action.

Show ch. on a pedigree past the parents or grands mean nothing. And you can search on ofa for her parents names and they will come back with every dog in the pedigree that has been ofa'ed and the siblings/progeny of the dogs. It is a great tool.

 

[Brindlebtch]

Quote:
Agreed.

 

[Redyre Rotties]

Quote:
You can have OFA prelims done at 12 months.

It is always best to go to the source for information. http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html OFA will do preliminary evaluations on puppies starting at FOUR months of age.

Your Saint puppy is definitely old enough to get a good idea of her hip joint conformation and health through a preliminary screening from the OFA. I would strongly suggest you go ahead and do this, because certain corrective therapies must be done on dogs at a young age to be successful.

St. Bernards are number 6 in ranking in the hip dysplasia statistics , with over 46% of dogs screened having abnormal hips.

 

[Stina]

Ditto on the x-rays...... They usually cost around $60 for one x-ray....and if your dog is having problems getting up after laying down for awhile...I would SERIOUSLY be afraid of dysplasia! You most certainly can see it in dogs that young if it is bad...and the limping you are describing sounds like it would be that bad if it is dysplasia.

I am not an expert but wanted to mention that most vets do not really have much training on diets, and what they do get usually comes from a representative from Science Diet

I went to vet school for a year before I decided I hated school too much to return (I had all A's and B's in my classes...just couldn't do it anymore). Veterinarians are required ONE, ONE hour, ONE semester long course in nutrition...and it is sponsored by Science Diet. They also get very cheap food from Science Diet and free food from Purina and Iams/Eukanuba. Most vets don't know much of anything about nutrition besides what they learn in that course. I didn't know much myself till after I left and decided to look into nutrition myself for my own pets.

There have been studies that show protein as high as 32% have no effect on the development of joints of large breed puppies. However, amounts of grain and such CAN have an effect on the joints. Grains are NOT a natural part of the canine diet.....dogs are domesticated...but they still have essentially the same digestive tract of wolves (domestic dogs are considered a subspecies of the gray wolf). Diets high in carbohydrates can mess a dog up....it affects body pH (leading to increased likelyhood of ear infections and urinary tract problems, among other things)...can increase the chances of cancer...can affect growth...can cause hyperactivity...can lead to bad teeth...increases stool volume and frequency (most grains go in one end and out the other...they just don't digest well!).

Dogs are made to eat meat, bone, organs, and a small amount of vegetation (NOT including grain). If I could afford it, I would feed our 3 dogs raw...but for now we stick with grain free, high quality, kibble. My oldest dog was on Beneful when I first got him in college (at 1 year old) and I used it for awhile b/c he seemed to do well enough on it and it was cheap, but his teeth already had some plaque!.....when I got to vet school I was able to get other things cheap, so I put him on Science Diet dental health (or whatever the one is that's "supposed" to be good for teeth)....didn't do anything for his teeth (or seem to affect him in any other way). After leaving school I began working in a pet store and started feeding a "higher quality" food...Ultramix...lower grain; no corn, wheat, or soy. He did well on that...a little less poop...but still bad teeth. At one point I decided to put him on a raw diet (he was the only dog I had at the time). He was on raw for a few months......his teeth got CLEAN (little to no signs of plaque), his coat was nicer, he pooped less, and his poop literally dissappeared within a week or two's time! Since we got our other 2 dogs I've had to go back to kibble (grain free, high quality!) since its less expensive, but his teeth have not gotten as bad as they had been before putting him on raw, and he still poops less than he ever did on a food with grain in it. He's almost 8 years old now but in prime condition and jumps into his crate at least twice a day.....it sits above our 70lb dog's crate and he has no problem jumping onto it/into his.

Sure, many have raised healthy, long lived dogs on low quality foods....but that doesn't mean they couldn't have been healthier and lived even longer if they'd been on a more appropriate diet!

Btw...here is a list of companies that make the most "popular" brands of pet foods...
* Nestlé - Alpo, Come 'N Get It, Mighty Dog, Chef's Blend, Fancy Feast, Friskies, Kit 'N Kaboodle, Deli-Cat, and Nestlé Purina products such as Dog Chow, Pro Plan, Beneful and Purina One
* Colgate-Palmolive - Hill's Science Diet Pet Food
* Del Monte - 9-Lives, Kibbles `n Bits, Cycle, Gravy Train, Nature's Recipe, and Reward
* Procter & Gamble - Eukanuba and Iams
* Mars - Pedigree, Advance, Cesar, Whiskas and Sheba

These companies are NOT in it to make/keep your dog healthy....they are in it for the money and will sell whatever people will buy!​

 

[Brindlebtch]

Quote:
You can have OFA prelims done at 12 months.

It is always best to go to the source for information. http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html OFA will do preliminary evaluations on puppies starting at FOUR months of age.

Your Saint puppy is definitely old enough to get a good idea of her hip joint conformation and health through a preliminary screening from the OFA. I would strongly suggest you go ahead and do this, because certain corrective therapies must be done on dogs at a young age to be successful.

St. Bernards are number 6 in ranking in the hip dysplasia statistics , with over 46% of dogs screened having abnormal hips.

I meant you can't get an OFA official certification of fair, good etc. until 2 yrs.

I can read an X-ray and don't see the need for the expense to send a prelim type X-ray into the OFA. The OFA designation you get actually depends a lot on who is reading the X-ray. And while they are board certified radiologists, they are FAR from perfect. I think a competent vet should be able to give you a reasonable idea of the state of a young dog's hips.
Please note: A competent vet.

Also, I had a dog when I was a kid that lived to 17 years old on purina dog chow and table scraps. Lets please not make this into a debate on dog food. If the OP wants to know about dog foods she can just do a search and I'm sure many, many threads on the pros and cons of various food types will come up.

 

[suburbanminifarm]

Quote:
I went to vet school for a year before I decided I hated school too much to return (I had all A's and B's in my classes...just couldn't do it anymore). Veterinarians are required ONE, ONE hour, ONE semester long course in nutrition...and it is sponsored by Science Diet. They also get very cheap food from Science Diet and free food from Purina and Iams/Eukanuba. Most vets don't know much of anything about nutrition besides what they learn in that course. I didn't know much myself till after I left and decided to look into nutrition myself for my own pets.

There have been studies that show protein as high as 32% have no effect on the development of joints of large breed puppies. However, amounts of grain and such CAN have an effect on the joints. Grains are NOT a natural part of the canine diet.....dogs are domesticated...but they still have essentially the same digestive tract of wolves (domestic dogs are considered a subspecies of the gray wolf). Diets high in carbohydrates can mess a dog up....it affects body pH (leading to increased likelyhood of ear infections and urinary tract problems, among other things)...can increase the chances of cancer...can affect growth...can cause hyperactivity...can lead to bad teeth...increases stool volume and frequency (most grains go in one end and out the other...they just don't digest well!).

Dogs are made to eat meat, bone, organs, and a small amount of vegetation (NOT including grain). If I could afford it, I would feed our 3 dogs raw...but for now we stick with grain free, high quality, kibble. My oldest dog was on Beneful when I first got him in college (at 1 year old) and I used it for awhile b/c he seemed to do well enough on it and it was cheap, but his teeth already had some plaque!.....when I got to vet school I was able to get other things cheap, so I put him on Science Diet dental health (or whatever the one is that's "supposed" to be good for teeth)....didn't do anything for his teeth (or seem to affect him in any other way). After leaving school I began working in a pet store and started feeding a "higher quality" food...Ultramix...lower grain; no corn, wheat, or soy. He did well on that...a little less poop...but still bad teeth. At one point I decided to put him on a raw diet (he was the only dog I had at the time). He was on raw for a few months......his teeth got CLEAN (little to no signs of plaque), his coat was nicer, he pooped less, and his poop literally dissappeared within a week or two's time! Since we got our other 2 dogs I've had to go back to kibble (grain free, high quality!) since its less expensive, but his teeth have not gotten as bad as they had been before putting him on raw, and he still poops less than he ever did on a food with grain in it. He's almost 8 years old now but in prime condition and jumps into his crate at least twice a day.....it sits above our 70lb dog's crate and he has no problem jumping onto it/into his.

Sure, many have raised healthy, long lived dogs on low quality foods....but that doesn't mean they couldn't have been healthier and lived even longer if they'd been on a more appropriate diet!

Btw...here is a list of companies that make the most "popular" brands of pet foods...
* Nestlé - Alpo, Come 'N Get It, Mighty Dog, Chef's Blend, Fancy Feast, Friskies, Kit 'N Kaboodle, Deli-Cat, and Nestlé Purina products such as Dog Chow, Pro Plan, Beneful and Purina One
* Colgate-Palmolive - Hill's Science Diet Pet Food
* Del Monte - 9-Lives, Kibbles `n Bits, Cycle, Gravy Train, Nature's Recipe, and Reward
* Procter & Gamble - Eukanuba and Iams
* Mars - Pedigree, Advance, Cesar, Whiskas and Sheba

These companies are NOT in it to make/keep your dog healthy....they are in it for the money and will sell whatever people will buy!

AMEN SISTER!!!!!!
(I was a vet tech and a dog research associate for many many years, took me a long time to figure this stuff out!!! This is valuable info.
P.S. I now feed my 15 1/2 year old staffie ONLY meat, bone, organs, I cook them up because she refuses raw, and it literally has put her cancer in remission, she's doing GREAT 8 mos later after a 2 weeks-left-to-live prognosis. She has clean teeth **BONES keep your dogs teeth clean people, not those pricey tooth cleaning processed treats!**and a whole different kind of poops! People have commented "you shouldn't feed your dog people food" HUH? or "bones aren't good for dogs" WHAT?? Do people think CORN is good for dogs?? She eats chicken bones every day , even at her advanced age. All that good marrow has turned around her anemia. I used to feed very high quality kibble but this has been nothing short of amazing results!)

 

[arabianequine]

She is on a lamb/rice large breed puppy food by diamond so you guys know it is a good quality food not sure how much grain is in there and she has been since I got her at 8 weeks. I mentioned a raw diet to the vets and they both said no need. I kept saying adult and they said I would not care what she was on either puppy or adult she is doing great just not enough vit d, calcuim, etc. but no need to change is what they said her coat looks good they said.

One of the vets is Old school and this is his office and been a vet forever I trust him very much and has helped me with animals a ton. Probably the best in town and I am not the only one who thinks so....The other vet in the office is new vet at this office and younger vet.

I can contact the UW in pullman and have them do some hip testing.

 

[Stina]

Most vets will say no on raw......because they know NOTHING about it. They won't recommend or endorse something they know nothing about! Its also because there is aways the risk of salmonella to HUMANS if its mishandled...dogs digestive systems are made to handle bacteria.

I would be very wary of Diamond.....Diamond was the very first dog food company to have a HUGE recall years ago b/c of melamine in it.......MANY dogs were made seriously ill or killed because of it. It doesn't look like the worst food out there ingredient wise...but it still has grains.