Need some advice on cochins/ firzzled and non frizzled

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by pamperedpoultry, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. pamperedpoultry

    pamperedpoultry CHICKENFIED

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    I have a few different colors of of cochins that are getting to the age I need to start building pens and pairing them up. Some are frizzled and some are not. This is what I have and how would you pair them to keep and which ones to rehome?
    Oh these are bantams btw:

    ~Blacks~
    2 smooth roos (may carry lavender gene???)
    1 frizzle roo ( not so great feathering)
    1 frizzle hen (really good feathering)
    1 smooth hen

    ~Self Blue/lavender~
    2 hens

    ~whites~
    1 frizzle roo
    1 smooth roo
    1 frizzle hen
    1 smooth hen

    I also have a few that I'm not sure what color they are but their pretty I have a smooth roo, 1 frizzle hen and 1 smooth hen, so thats sorta a dead give away on those. Heres pic's of the frizzled a lil over a month ago,
    [​IMG]

    One more thing I only have 1 white silkie I think its a pullet, If so would I be better off sticking her with B/B/S or partridge, or better gettin some more whites??

    Heres a few pic's of some of the others
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  2. Glenda L Heywood

    Glenda L Heywood Songster

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    Apr 11, 2009
    pamperedpoultry]I have a few different colors of of cochins that are getting to the age I need to start building pens and pairing them up. Some are frizzled and some are not. This is what I have and how would you pair them to keep and which ones to rehome?
    Oh these are bantams btw:

    ~Blacks~
    2 smooth roos (may carry lavender gene???)
    1 frizzle roo ( not so great feathering)
    1 frizzle hen (really good feathering)
    1 smooth hen

    ~Self Blue/lavender~
    2 hens

    ANSWER

    NOTE HERE Remember always breed frizzle to smooth's NOT frizzle to frizzle
    (1) THESE GO TO GETHER
    ~Self Blue/lavender~
    2 hens
    1 SMOOTH ROOSTER CARRYING LAVENDER GENES

    If you are to make frizzles out of the lavender two hens are they smooths? if so they will need to be put with a black frizzle roo

    (2)Frizzle hen goes with the smooth roo
    (3) the frizzle roo goes with the smooth hens


    ~whites~
    1 frizzle roo
    1 smooth roo
    1 frizzle hen
    1 smooth hen

    ANSWER
    same goes here
    breed only the smooth roo to a frizzle hen
    and a frizzle roo to a smooth hen
    never frizzle to frizzle
    no matter the color
    You can pick the best frizzle bird as one that does not have tight whispy feathers
    that bird has been from a frizzle to frizzle mating
    breeding eclusively frizzle to frizzle makes for a bad tight whispy feather
    and cochins are to have a broad nice frizzled feather
    that turns towards the face of the bird



    I also have a few that I'm not sure what color they are but their pretty I have a smooth roo, 1 frizzle hen and 1 smooth hen, so thats sorta a dead give away on those. Heres pic's of the frizzled a lil over a month ago,

    any questions email me
     
  3. pamperedpoultry

    pamperedpoultry CHICKENFIED

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    Thanks! Thats kinda alone the lines I was thinking. I'm considering not using the frizzle roo that I have pictured. Compared to the frizzle hen he's pitiful looking. I Think I will do a smooth roo with the frizzle hen and the smooth hen.

    I'll try to get some more pic's maybe I can get advice on which are the better looking ones.
     
  4. pamperedpoultry

    pamperedpoultry CHICKENFIED

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    Updated original post also to ask about silkies, I ended up with only 1 white silkie I think its a pullet. If so would I be better off sticking her with B/B/S or partridge, or better gettin some more whites??
     
  5. Teach97

    Teach97 Bantam Addict

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    Hooker, OK
    I would send the self blues to me! [​IMG]
     
  6. pamperedpoultry

    pamperedpoultry CHICKENFIED

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    Quote:ha ha I'm pretty sure I got these from eggs bought from Rbamterry if your interested in hatching eggs. I think she discovered she has a hen that carries these genes
     
  7. Glenda L Heywood

    Glenda L Heywood Songster

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    Some thoughts on breeding frizzles

    (1 yes a frizzle bred to a non frizzle will make a percentage of F-1 frizzles out of 100 probably about 25 I would say

    (2 but when breeding the F-1 male or female to the parent you will increase to 50% frizzles

    (3 now what to do with the smooths ( frizzles out of frizzles but with smooth no frizzle look) After say 3-5 yrs of breeding the smooths back to a frizzle parent yes you will get some frizzles out of smooth to smooth

    (4 I know the genetic people disagree but hey! I done it and so have others. The modifying gene is in their genetics of the smooths. Thus they will have enough frizzle genetics to produce frizzle off spring.

    (4-B But the frizzle has to be strong in the smooths after that many yrs it should be there. Smooths are to be non frizzle gene BUT if one keeps breeding nothing but frizzle to smooths can any one tell me why there isn't some frizzle genetics there.

    (4-C I bred them several decades so know the genetics can be there.
    As I only bred frizzle to smooths, never frizzle to frizzle

    (5 Smooths are a nice bird that has been bred out of frizzle breeding. It has to have frizzle background in several generations for two smooths out of frizzle breeding to produce a frizzled offspring.

    (5-B You can't keep adding non frizzled birds back as that only cuts the percentages of frizzles coming from 100 offspring.
    Every non frizzled bird bred to frizzle maks the genetic number for frizzling much less.

    (5-C When breeding for the first time the regular feathered bird to a frizzle. Remember after the first yr do not use the regular feathered bird (that doesn't have any frizzle back ground) but use the smooths which are out of the frizzle breeding back on the frizzle parent

    (5-D also use the frizzle F-1 offspring back on the frizzle parent and then do not use the frizzle to frizzle any more.

    (5-E the tightly curled frizzle will not get enough feather folicles to make enough feathers also. It will be a curley frizzle. Not able to stand the heat or the cold. Usually will have to be culled. It will have tight narrow stringy feathers that have a wet look to the feathers.

    (5-F the extreme frizzle generally will molt in with very few feather folicles,( meaning no holes for feathers to grow out of) and have to be discarded.

    (5-G the use of frizzle to frizzle makes one automatically cull 1/4 of the offspring from a setting of these eggs.

    (5-H so why feed and have to cull any as all you have to do is take and use smooths to frizzle and get 1/2 frizzles and 1/2 smooths from this mating

    any questions email me
     
  8. Glenda L Heywood

    Glenda L Heywood Songster

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    here is why the breeding smooths to frizzles and then after several years you can breed smooths to smooths and get some frizzles out of that mating
    a friend of mine in Australia sent me this explanation of the modifying gene in frizzles that makes that possible

    KazJaps from Australia

    here is a Frizzle modifying gene (mf) that alters the ___expression of Frizzling (F). This might explain Glenda’s results. Put these genes together in different combinations & you’ll get various expressions of frizzling (or no frizzling). A bird may appear not to be frizzled, but may actually have the frizzle modifying gene masking ___expression (heterozygous for frizzling & homozygous for frizzle modifier: Ff+ mfmf). So the phenotype (how a bird looks) is non-frizzled, but genetically they have the frizzle gene. Glenda puts it nicely, “Smooth Frizzle”. The bird actually has one dose of the frizzle gene. Therefore offspring of 2 seemingly normal-feathered birds may produce a Frizzle (by the modifying gene becoming heterozygous or the frizzle gene becoming homozygous).

    So, there are 5 main phenotypes (how a bird looks)
    1: normal feathering (f+f+ Mf+Mf+ or f+f+ mfmf)
    2: smooths, as Glenda calls them (Ff+ mfmf)
    3: exhibition frizzles (Ff+ Mf+Mf+)
    4: frizzled, less woolly than extreme (FF mfmf)
    5: extreme frizzling (FF Mf+Mf+)

    f+ = non-frizzled gene (wild type)
    F = frizzle gene (incomplete dominant)

    mf = modifying frizzle gene (recessive)
    Mf+ = non-modifying frizzle gene (wild type)

    FF = homozygous frizzle (2 doses of the frizzle gene)
    Ff+ = heterozygous frizzle (1 dose of the frizzle gene)

    mfmf = homozygous modifying frizzle (2 doses of the modifying frizzle gene)

    * The modifying gene needs two copies (homozygous) for ___expression, plus the frizzle gene. The frizzle gene needs at least one copy for ___expression, plus not homozygous for modifying genes (if heterozygous for frizzling Ff+).

    So, as Glenda explained, if you breed two smoothies together (Ff+ mfmf X Ff+ mfmf), there is still the possibility of getting frizzled birds (FF mfmf), about 25%. Also breeding a smoothie (Ff+ mfmf) with a normal feathered bird (wild type f+f+ Mf+Mf+) will produce frizzle (Ff+ Mf+mf), & so on ……

    The frizzle modifying gene apparently is quite common in non-frizzled birds.
    ---------------------------
    Well, that’s the theory anyway. This thread is a perfect example why I like to listen to people who have bred birds for decades. It is not very common for poultry geneticists to have identified a modifying gene sch as this.
     

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