- Thread starter
- #11
Goodness, no, I wouldn't free range around hunting dogs!!! One is an ex police dog, The other is currently training for search & rescue.
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Quote:
Neighbor's dogs
- Thread starter SandraMort
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #12
Quote:
Oh, I had planned to give him eggs and meat regardless. There's no reason we can't share with the nice single man upstairs who does work around the place. He's building the play area for my kids and I can already telll he's willing to help out if I need.
Oh, I had planned to give him eggs and meat regardless. There's no reason we can't share with the nice single man upstairs who does work around the place. He's building the play area for my kids and I can already telll he's willing to help out if I need.
Talk to him now. Proclaiming that you will be free-ranging chickens 18 hours a day in the yard formerly enjoyed by his dogs is not a good way to start.
No, tact certainly helps. Plus his dogs aren't always roaming, either. They have a private fenced in area, too. But there are likely to be times both are out, so I wasn't sure how to do this. Bringing them the babies to get used to from the beginning may help, if I understand the other poster. I'm sure he'd be willing to help me expose the dogs to the birds.
No, tact certainly helps. Plus his dogs aren't always roaming, either. They have a private fenced in area, too. But there are likely to be times both are out, so I wasn't sure how to do this. Bringing them the babies to get used to from the beginning may help, if I understand the other poster. I'm sure he'd be willing to help me expose the dogs to the birds.
A duplex with other tenants' dogs doesn't strike me as a very good place to free-range poultry.
I don't know yet. It's a BIG property -- eight acres -- and they hang out around the house, not the barn. They might just avoid each other.
I don't know yet. It's a BIG property -- eight acres -- and they hang out around the house, not the barn. They might just avoid each other.
You may do well to reconsider your plan and instead construct a *sturdy* run out of dog-kennel panels with chicken wire around the bottom, and a netted top as well.
See, I haven't made ANY plan yet. I haven't even signed the lease yet! I'm just getting all the info ready so that this week, when I DO sign the lease and send in my money, I know what I've got to do.
The landlady prefers me to free range, for the record.
See, I haven't made ANY plan yet. I haven't even signed the lease yet! I'm just getting all the info ready so that this week, when I DO sign the lease and send in my money, I know what I've got to do.
The landlady prefers me to free range, for the record.
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Death.
Hand wringing
Arguments
Revenge
Making up (hopefully)
More chickens (again, hopefully).
GO talk to the dude now.
Death.
Hand wringing
Arguments
Revenge
Making up (hopefully)
More chickens (again, hopefully).
GO talk to the dude now.
Quote:
#1, my dogs are already obedience-trained, well-mannered, and respectful. Two of them have experience working livestock, one has experience working ducks. The more a dog knows, and the more self-control he has developed, the easier this is.
#2, from the time the day-old chicks arrived, I require my two young farm collies to be calm and respectful before they get to "see a chickie." When they are sitting calmly near the brooder, I ask them if they want to see a chickie. They do! As long as they sit and do not get overexcited, I will hold a chick for them to sniff and maybe lick a little. If one of them "punches" towards the chick with his or her nose, tries to nibble, or gets too excited, chickie goes away. I always remind them that the chickie is MINE, and that they must be GENTLE. They know both concepts. (My oldest farm collie is motherly towards the chicks, and requires no special effort at introductions. My German shepherd is mostly indifferent to them, and is indifferent to all poultry everywhere we go.)
#3, I've taken the cardboard shield off the front of the brooder (at about 16 days old, a week ago) so the dogs can now see the chicks at their head level. The brooder is in our mudroom, so the dogs see them whenever they come and go, or when they are resting on the cool floor there. They can get used to the exciting noises and attempts at flying, etc while the chicks are still confined.
#4, Chicks will be moving out to their stall in the barn this week or next. I will take dogs in with me one at a time, under verbal control (never restrained by a tight leash, which builds the drive to chase things) while I do chicken chores. I'll correct any excitement on the dog's part before it gets going -- timing is everything. They'll first see chicks on the ground through a fence panel, so if that's too exciting we won't have an immediate fatality.
#5, When it's time for the chickies to free-range, they'll first go out under the supervision of my alpha grump only. In a few days I'll allow the GSD out. Then I'll let the two young ones out, under close human supervision and the ever-watchful-eye of their mother, one at a time at first. I expect to be supervising the dogs when the poultry is out for a matter of some weeks before I'll turn my back on them. Any chasing of poultry or excitement around them will be corrected immediately -- probably by my alpha grump, but by me if she isn't right there.
I'll also be training one or both of the youngsters to put the hens up at night. (Their mother is too soft on poultry -- I'll let her just protect them. I'll probably use her youngest daughter to work poultry, as The Boy is more of a guardian type dog himself, and also has less finesse.)
Several of their siblings and each of their sires have been doing this very job from a quite young age, and live successfully with free-range poultry. I'm being extra-careful because these two are adults now (5 years and 15 months) and have not lived with poultry.
As you can see, a good progressive introduction protocol is time-consuming and requires some groundwork training in the dog.
Skipping steps or rushing the process is likely to end with feathers and blood.
#1, my dogs are already obedience-trained, well-mannered, and respectful. Two of them have experience working livestock, one has experience working ducks. The more a dog knows, and the more self-control he has developed, the easier this is.
#2, from the time the day-old chicks arrived, I require my two young farm collies to be calm and respectful before they get to "see a chickie." When they are sitting calmly near the brooder, I ask them if they want to see a chickie. They do! As long as they sit and do not get overexcited, I will hold a chick for them to sniff and maybe lick a little. If one of them "punches" towards the chick with his or her nose, tries to nibble, or gets too excited, chickie goes away. I always remind them that the chickie is MINE, and that they must be GENTLE. They know both concepts. (My oldest farm collie is motherly towards the chicks, and requires no special effort at introductions. My German shepherd is mostly indifferent to them, and is indifferent to all poultry everywhere we go.)
#3, I've taken the cardboard shield off the front of the brooder (at about 16 days old, a week ago) so the dogs can now see the chicks at their head level. The brooder is in our mudroom, so the dogs see them whenever they come and go, or when they are resting on the cool floor there. They can get used to the exciting noises and attempts at flying, etc while the chicks are still confined.
#4, Chicks will be moving out to their stall in the barn this week or next. I will take dogs in with me one at a time, under verbal control (never restrained by a tight leash, which builds the drive to chase things) while I do chicken chores. I'll correct any excitement on the dog's part before it gets going -- timing is everything. They'll first see chicks on the ground through a fence panel, so if that's too exciting we won't have an immediate fatality.
#5, When it's time for the chickies to free-range, they'll first go out under the supervision of my alpha grump only. In a few days I'll allow the GSD out. Then I'll let the two young ones out, under close human supervision and the ever-watchful-eye of their mother, one at a time at first. I expect to be supervising the dogs when the poultry is out for a matter of some weeks before I'll turn my back on them. Any chasing of poultry or excitement around them will be corrected immediately -- probably by my alpha grump, but by me if she isn't right there.
I'll also be training one or both of the youngsters to put the hens up at night. (Their mother is too soft on poultry -- I'll let her just protect them. I'll probably use her youngest daughter to work poultry, as The Boy is more of a guardian type dog himself, and also has less finesse.)
Several of their siblings and each of their sires have been doing this very job from a quite young age, and live successfully with free-range poultry. I'm being extra-careful because these two are adults now (5 years and 15 months) and have not lived with poultry.
As you can see, a good progressive introduction protocol is time-consuming and requires some groundwork training in the dog.
Skipping steps or rushing the process is likely to end with feathers and blood.
Quote:
#1, my dogs are already obedience-trained, well-mannered, and respectful. Two of them have experience working livestock, one has experience working ducks. The more a dog knows, and the more self-control he has developed, the easier this is.
#2, from the time the day-old chicks arrived, I require my two young farm collies to be calm and respectful before they get to "see a chickie." When they are sitting calmly near the brooder, I ask them if they want to see a chickie. They do! As long as they sit and do not get overexcited, I will hold a chick for them to sniff and maybe lick a little. If one of them "punches" towards the chick with his or her nose, tries to nibble, or gets too excited, chickie goes away. I always remind them that the chickie is MINE, and that they must be GENTLE. They know both concepts. (My oldest farm collie is motherly towards the chicks, and requires no special effort at introductions. My German shepherd is mostly indifferent to them, and is indifferent to all poultry everywhere we go.)
#3, I've taken the cardboard shield off the front of the brooder (at about 16 days old, a week ago) so the dogs can now see the chicks at their head level. The brooder is in our mudroom, so the dogs see them whenever they come and go, or when they are resting on the cool floor there. They can get used to the exciting noises and attempts at flying, etc while the chicks are still confined.
#4, Chicks will be moving out to their stall in the barn this week or next. I will take dogs in with me one at a time, under verbal control (never restrained by a tight leash, which builds the drive to chase things) while I do chicken chores. I'll correct any excitement on the dog's part before it gets going -- timing is everything. They'll first see chicks on the ground through a fence panel, so if that's too exciting we won't have an immediate fatality.
#5, When it's time for the chickies to free-range, they'll first go out under the supervision of my alpha grump only. In a few days I'll allow the GSD out. Then I'll let the two young ones out, under close human supervision and the ever-watchful-eye of their mother, one at a time at first. I expect to be supervising the dogs when the poultry is out for a matter of some weeks before I'll turn my back on them. Any chasing of poultry or excitement around them will be corrected immediately -- probably by my alpha grump, but by me if she isn't right there.
I'll also be training one or both of the youngsters to put the hens up at night. (Their mother is too soft on poultry -- I'll let her just protect them. I'll probably use her youngest daughter to work poultry, as The Boy is more of a guardian type dog himself, and also has less finesse.)
Several of their siblings and each of their sires have been doing this very job from a quite young age, and live successfully with free-range poultry. I'm being extra-careful because these two are adults now (5 years and 15 months) and have not lived with poultry.
As you can see, a good progressive introduction protocol is time-consuming and requires some groundwork training in the dog.
Skipping steps or rushing the process is likely to end with feathers and blood.
This is how I do it. I add sound aversion to the foregoing.
#1, my dogs are already obedience-trained, well-mannered, and respectful. Two of them have experience working livestock, one has experience working ducks. The more a dog knows, and the more self-control he has developed, the easier this is.
#2, from the time the day-old chicks arrived, I require my two young farm collies to be calm and respectful before they get to "see a chickie." When they are sitting calmly near the brooder, I ask them if they want to see a chickie. They do! As long as they sit and do not get overexcited, I will hold a chick for them to sniff and maybe lick a little. If one of them "punches" towards the chick with his or her nose, tries to nibble, or gets too excited, chickie goes away. I always remind them that the chickie is MINE, and that they must be GENTLE. They know both concepts. (My oldest farm collie is motherly towards the chicks, and requires no special effort at introductions. My German shepherd is mostly indifferent to them, and is indifferent to all poultry everywhere we go.)
#3, I've taken the cardboard shield off the front of the brooder (at about 16 days old, a week ago) so the dogs can now see the chicks at their head level. The brooder is in our mudroom, so the dogs see them whenever they come and go, or when they are resting on the cool floor there. They can get used to the exciting noises and attempts at flying, etc while the chicks are still confined.
#4, Chicks will be moving out to their stall in the barn this week or next. I will take dogs in with me one at a time, under verbal control (never restrained by a tight leash, which builds the drive to chase things) while I do chicken chores. I'll correct any excitement on the dog's part before it gets going -- timing is everything. They'll first see chicks on the ground through a fence panel, so if that's too exciting we won't have an immediate fatality.
#5, When it's time for the chickies to free-range, they'll first go out under the supervision of my alpha grump only. In a few days I'll allow the GSD out. Then I'll let the two young ones out, under close human supervision and the ever-watchful-eye of their mother, one at a time at first. I expect to be supervising the dogs when the poultry is out for a matter of some weeks before I'll turn my back on them. Any chasing of poultry or excitement around them will be corrected immediately -- probably by my alpha grump, but by me if she isn't right there.
I'll also be training one or both of the youngsters to put the hens up at night. (Their mother is too soft on poultry -- I'll let her just protect them. I'll probably use her youngest daughter to work poultry, as The Boy is more of a guardian type dog himself, and also has less finesse.)
Several of their siblings and each of their sires have been doing this very job from a quite young age, and live successfully with free-range poultry. I'm being extra-careful because these two are adults now (5 years and 15 months) and have not lived with poultry.
As you can see, a good progressive introduction protocol is time-consuming and requires some groundwork training in the dog.
Skipping steps or rushing the process is likely to end with feathers and blood.
This is how I do it. I add sound aversion to the foregoing.
- Thread starter
- #16
That informatioon was VERY helpful, thank you!!!!
Wow! 8 acres is a lot of property! I wish there were 8 acres in between us and the nasty neighbors next door sometimes! Anyway, it sounds like his dogs, while certainly capable of killing, could be easily trained to protect the chickens and consider them part of their family. That other poster was totally right about talking to him now and working out a plan to expose the dogs to the birds. I bet the guy would really get into the challenge of preparing his dogs so they were protecting the birds instead of chasing and hurting them. I actually think you might have a pretty good situation there if the guy is on board with you. Oh, and who wouldn't do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING for free, healthy, natural eggs?
If it ends up not working, just make an awesome chicken tractor (or 3)
and move it around every day like we do...free ranging at it's safest!
Quote:
Okay, little-know facts revealed to the public by a handler and trainer of search and rescue dogs for the past 17 years:
Most SAR dogs (decent ones) are "high-prey-drive" dogs. They are genetically predisposed to chase and bite moving objects (balls, frisbees, sticks). We further build that drive as part of their training for work. Many become absolutely fanatical about ball-play. The same will generally hold true of police canines -- similar genetics, similar training methods.
Now -- for some SAR dogs, the prey drive gets *completely* focused on that toy and the game they play with humans. This is ideal.
My very-high-prey-drive German shepherd is one of those. To a fault, really.
But some SAR dogs have issues with "crittering." Their prey drive is generalized, and they like to chase, bite, and kill moving *animals* too. This can be a frequent training hurdle. I nearly had to wash my second dog out of training as an adolescent because of her deer chasing. It took months of careful and tedious training to break it. She became the best SAR dog I have ever seen, and I've seen thousands. And the other half of my heart. But she was also the reason I did not have poultry before this -- because I'd broken her of chasing game, but taunting her with small fast-moving animals around her household would have been just too much. It was too much of a strain on her self-control to force her to do it 24/7 at home.
Then I have my eldest farm collie, who will kill groundhogs and other varmints on sight, but seems to be genetically programmed to behave absolutely appropriately around livestock. Wonderful. Rarest dog in the world. And I *did* choose her for those genetics.
Your soon-to-be neighbor, if he is a real SAR handler, not a wannabe, will be aware of these issues and should have some idea of how high his dogs' prey drive is (I'm assuming they are German shepherds or Labs or maybe goldens, or one of each, or possibly a border collie or Malinois?) and also how focused it is.
If having poultry taunting his SAR dog leads it into bad habits, he's going to be mighty sore. And for good reason.
But if the poultry become a *training opportunity*, then it's a win-win for everyone. You may even be able to involve the rest of his unit, and his unit's training officers. (There are several farms where we take our SAR dogs for the experience of working in the presence of livestock, and handlers are very grateful for that opportunity.)
TALK TO THE GUY.
FYI, trained "hunting dogs" are generally quite safe around poultry. Even pointers and retrievers who hunt birds. Their predatory instincts are well-channeled towards the appropriate prey species. I know countless people who free-range poultry around bird dogs and hounds.
Okay, little-know facts revealed to the public by a handler and trainer of search and rescue dogs for the past 17 years:
Most SAR dogs (decent ones) are "high-prey-drive" dogs. They are genetically predisposed to chase and bite moving objects (balls, frisbees, sticks). We further build that drive as part of their training for work. Many become absolutely fanatical about ball-play. The same will generally hold true of police canines -- similar genetics, similar training methods.
Now -- for some SAR dogs, the prey drive gets *completely* focused on that toy and the game they play with humans. This is ideal.
My very-high-prey-drive German shepherd is one of those. To a fault, really.
But some SAR dogs have issues with "crittering." Their prey drive is generalized, and they like to chase, bite, and kill moving *animals* too. This can be a frequent training hurdle. I nearly had to wash my second dog out of training as an adolescent because of her deer chasing. It took months of careful and tedious training to break it. She became the best SAR dog I have ever seen, and I've seen thousands. And the other half of my heart. But she was also the reason I did not have poultry before this -- because I'd broken her of chasing game, but taunting her with small fast-moving animals around her household would have been just too much. It was too much of a strain on her self-control to force her to do it 24/7 at home.
Then I have my eldest farm collie, who will kill groundhogs and other varmints on sight, but seems to be genetically programmed to behave absolutely appropriately around livestock. Wonderful. Rarest dog in the world. And I *did* choose her for those genetics.
Your soon-to-be neighbor, if he is a real SAR handler, not a wannabe, will be aware of these issues and should have some idea of how high his dogs' prey drive is (I'm assuming they are German shepherds or Labs or maybe goldens, or one of each, or possibly a border collie or Malinois?) and also how focused it is.
If having poultry taunting his SAR dog leads it into bad habits, he's going to be mighty sore. And for good reason.
But if the poultry become a *training opportunity*, then it's a win-win for everyone. You may even be able to involve the rest of his unit, and his unit's training officers. (There are several farms where we take our SAR dogs for the experience of working in the presence of livestock, and handlers are very grateful for that opportunity.)
TALK TO THE GUY.
FYI, trained "hunting dogs" are generally quite safe around poultry. Even pointers and retrievers who hunt birds. Their predatory instincts are well-channeled towards the appropriate prey species. I know countless people who free-range poultry around bird dogs and hounds.
Quote:
#5, When it's time for the chickies to free-range, they'll first go out under the supervision of my alpha grump only. In a few days I'll allow the GSD out. Then I'll let the two young ones out, under close human supervision and the ever-watchful-eye of their mother, one at a time at first. I expect to be supervising the dogs when the poultry is out for a matter of some weeks before I'll turn my back on them. Any chasing of poultry or excitement around them will be corrected immediately -- probably by my alpha grump, but by me if she isn't right there.
As you can see, a good progressive introduction protocol is time-consuming and requires some groundwork training in the dog.
Skipping steps or rushing the process is likely to end with feathers and blood.
Brandywine, you've totally 'got it'! That's the way I handled my pups - except the chickens were grown ups and the pups were babies. Absolutely no unsupervised contact, no stirring the chickens up around the dogs, those flapping feathers can easily over stimulate an inexperienced and/or immature dog very quickly.
When my dogs were about 9 months old I came home one day and saw the gardeners had left the gate open and chickens and dogs were all mixed together I nearly had heart failure. But my attention to ground work had held the dogs tight and every chicken was cool, calm, collected and accounted for that night at feeding!
One of my dogs is an Aussie and the other a very prey driven greyhound lab mix. It can be done and is really worth the attention and effort. 7 years later both dogs are completely trustworthy around my chickens (and one of the chickens is an original from 7 years ago too, just as an aside).
#5, When it's time for the chickies to free-range, they'll first go out under the supervision of my alpha grump only. In a few days I'll allow the GSD out. Then I'll let the two young ones out, under close human supervision and the ever-watchful-eye of their mother, one at a time at first. I expect to be supervising the dogs when the poultry is out for a matter of some weeks before I'll turn my back on them. Any chasing of poultry or excitement around them will be corrected immediately -- probably by my alpha grump, but by me if she isn't right there.
As you can see, a good progressive introduction protocol is time-consuming and requires some groundwork training in the dog.
Skipping steps or rushing the process is likely to end with feathers and blood.
Brandywine, you've totally 'got it'! That's the way I handled my pups - except the chickens were grown ups and the pups were babies. Absolutely no unsupervised contact, no stirring the chickens up around the dogs, those flapping feathers can easily over stimulate an inexperienced and/or immature dog very quickly.
When my dogs were about 9 months old I came home one day and saw the gardeners had left the gate open and chickens and dogs were all mixed together I nearly had heart failure. But my attention to ground work had held the dogs tight and every chicken was cool, calm, collected and accounted for that night at feeding!
One of my dogs is an Aussie and the other a very prey driven greyhound lab mix. It can be done and is really worth the attention and effort. 7 years later both dogs are completely trustworthy around my chickens (and one of the chickens is an original from 7 years ago too, just as an aside).
Quote:
Oh, and who wouldn't do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING for free, healthy, natural eggs?
FREE?? Thats cute
I like the idea of neighborly types getting along, him going to the trouble of training his dogs on your behalf, and so on. I really do.
But, when it comes to neighbors, it aint always like we dream it might be. Reality is something else.
Go talk to him and find out the real deal. You might be lucky, you might not. But you will surely know what to plan for, as go-veggie suggests.
Oh, and who wouldn't do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING for free, healthy, natural eggs?
FREE?? Thats cute
I like the idea of neighborly types getting along, him going to the trouble of training his dogs on your behalf, and so on. I really do.
But, when it comes to neighbors, it aint always like we dream it might be. Reality is something else.
Go talk to him and find out the real deal. You might be lucky, you might not. But you will surely know what to plan for, as go-veggie suggests.
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