new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Perris]

With all this is mind, is there a good feed that’s easy to buy? My apologies if it was answered in the thread already and I missed it

I have no idea what may be easily available to you where you are. The short answer is: something with as few ingredients as possible (while still meeting at least minimum required levels of essential nutrients), and those ingredients being recognizable foodstuffs and things you might find in a kitchen, rather than a long list of chemicals including things only found in a chemistry lab.

 

[Perris]

I've discovered one reason why Henry may do it - gives him a bit of va-voom!
'Access to pasture ... improves rooster sperm quality' Poultry Science 2018
http://dx.doi.org/10.3382/ps/pey299

I've found some more research on grass eating @Shadrach , this time with quite a detailed analysis of what was in the specific pasture used for this research, Transfer of bioactive compounds from pasture to meat in organic free-range chickens, http://dx.doi.org/10.3382/ps/pev383 ,
and which includes reference to another paper where
"Dal Bosco et al. (2014) found that in the summer, the grass ingestion ranges from approximately 15 to 43 g of DM/d per bird according to the environmental enrichment of the pasture (e.g., tall grass or olive trees)"

 

[Perris]

I have found a recent paper on free choice feeding for meat birds, to complement those on free choice for chicks and free choice for laying hens in post #9 above
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...ewer/f6d0fa455d8cf3c3e942664c46edae5984181a4b

The conclusions are "1. In conclusion, free-choice feeding of free-range chickens resulted in similar weight gain and lower breast yield compared with formulated feeding. 2. Free-choice feeding cost less than the fully formulated diet in this study. 3. Free-choice feeding may be more suited to small- or medium-scale production rather than large-scale production." There is no evidence the birds choose a deficient diet (or excessive fat) from their ability to choose what to eat.

It also observes that "Although grinding, formulating, mixing, and pelleting may have advantages for feed intake or FE, many small producers are interested in whole grain feeding to reduce the energy used in feed processing and also for gastrointestinal health. Whole grain feeding enhances the development of the gastrointestinal tract so it is better able to absorb dietary nutrients, optimizing gut performance [29]. "

Another paper to add here, this time for pullets, Restricted Feeding of Pullets 1. THE VALUE OF PASTURE AND SELF-SELECTION OF DIETARY COMPONENTS.

It concludes: "Pullets that were permitted to select their dietary components laid slightly more eggs and with greater feed efficiency than those fed in the conventional manner resulting in a greater return over feed cost."

Again there is no evidence to support the myths asserted by some posters on BYC that birds permitted to choose their own food pick out 'junk food' and leave 'the good stuff', nor that self-selection upsets the putative 'balance' they get from concentrated feed. They take what their instincts tell them they need from what's on offer. And these studies even show that they feed themselves more efficiently than humans feed them.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003257911937748X

 

[Krugerrand]

Another paper to add here, this time for pullets, Restricted Feeding of Pullets 1. THE VALUE OF PASTURE AND SELF-SELECTION OF DIETARY COMPONENTS.

It concludes: "Pullets that were permitted to select their dietary components laid slightly more eggs and with greater feed efficiency than those fed in the conventional manner resulting in a greater return over feed cost."

Again there is no evidence to support the myths asserted by some posters on BYC that birds permitted to choose their own food pick out 'junk food' and leave 'the good stuff', nor that self-selection upsets the putative 'balance' they get from concentrated feed. They take what their instincts tell them they need from what's on offer. And these studies even show that they feed themselves more efficiently than humans feed them.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003257911937748X

Could you envision a risk of a nutritional imbalance within a flock where dominant chickens 'hog' certain elements to leave some nutritional quantity insufficient for the those lower on the pecking order?

 

[3KillerBs]

Could you envision a risk of a nutritional imbalance within a flock where dominant chickens 'hog' certain elements to leave some nutritional quantity insufficient for the those lower on the pecking order?

I didn't bookmark the thread, but a few years ago a member here reported just that issue in her(?) flock, which was fed on a whole-grain feed.

Her dominant birds developed issues related to too much fat and a deficiency of certain nutrients while her subordinate birds developed issues related to over-consumption of the pellet that contained the vitamin concentrate.

I don't doubt the ability of chickens -- at least of game-type and landrace birds -- to balance their own nutrition in a sufficiently-rich and varied environment when given space enough to never run short and/or a sufficient supply of the minimally-processed feed ingredients that the birds never have to compete for them. Especially when kept on this regime for a number of generations to naturally cull out birds that don't balance their intake.

But I do doubt the applicability of the principle to modern chickens, even of the classic barnyard breeds, which have been bred over recent decades to lay 200-300 eggs per year, when they are kept in a restricted space and given a set amount of feed because it's impractical to pour money into waste by offering unlimited amounts of feed that isn't being eaten before it spoils or attracts vermin.

 

[Perris]

Could you envision a risk of a nutritional imbalance within a flock where dominant chickens 'hog' certain elements to leave some nutritional quantity insufficient for the those lower on the pecking order?

It hasn't been an issue here. I split the feed between 5 bowls each positioned a foot or so apart, all under the feeding station roof. There is one bossy hen with whom only 2 hens higher than her and the dominant roo will dare to share the same bowl, but I haven't seen a 'dog-in-the-manger' type situation arise. There's a fair amount of circulating (I don't always put the same food in each bowl, deliberately), and the lowest in the pecking order sometimes choose to eat grass and other forage while they wait till the main flock moves on; they are invariably the relatively young and low ranking members of the flock, and in some ways this natural behaviour mirrors the restricted food aspect of that paper in #196 ; it means they mature slower and start laying a little later, but then when they do start their eggs are good quality and size, and over time they actually lay more eggs.

Also any bird that hangs around the back door here gets offered live mealworms - up to about 20. Despite this practice, and the fact that they all adore live mealworms and that's the first thing to get eaten from the food bowls, they only come very occasionally to the back door; no-one to date has decided to come get some mealworms every day. That's why I don't think they overeat, even of their favourite food. Those who come to the back door need a protein boost, or whatever else they get from live mealworms, for whatever reason, and once it's delivered, they resume normal behaviour, which is foraging.

 

[Perris]

A picture paints a thousand words, as they say, so here is one to illustrate the last point

and yes, that is a pheasant on the extreme left. He joins the party sometimes.

 

[Geena]

Another paper to add here, this time for pullets, Restricted Feeding of Pullets 1. THE VALUE OF PASTURE AND SELF-SELECTION OF DIETARY COMPONENTS.

It concludes: "Pullets that were permitted to select their dietary components laid slightly more eggs and with greater feed efficiency than those fed in the conventional manner resulting in a greater return over feed cost."

Again there is no evidence to support the myths asserted by some posters on BYC that birds permitted to choose their own food pick out 'junk food' and leave 'the good stuff', nor that self-selection upsets the putative 'balance' they get from concentrated feed. They take what their instincts tell them they need from what's on offer. And these studies even show that they feed themselves more efficiently than humans feed them.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003257911937748X

But it also states-

"The self-selection program proved to be of no advantage in egg production over the mash and grain program where the birds were raised in confinement
but with range reared pullets there appeared to be a slight advantage over the
conventional program. "

"Birds having a selection of concentrate,
grain and minerals consumed more protein
than those on the conventional program
both in confinement and on range
The self selection group in confinement appeared to
over-consume protein at the expense of
energy resulting in a C/P ratio of 48:1."


Since the self selection pullets were the only ones able to freely consume as much protein as they wanted, perhaps that's why they laid slightly better?
The one group that was only provided grain, minerals and free range only consumed 9.3% protein!

Also, there was no "junk food" available to any of them, the self selection group only had corn, oats, minerals and "concentrate" to choose from.

 

[Perris]

But it also states-

"The self-selection program
proved to be of no advantage in egg production over the mash and grain program
where the birds were raised in confinement
but with range reared pullets there appeared to be a slight advantage over the
conventional program. "

"Birds having a selection of concentrate,
grain and minerals consumed more protein
than those on the conventional program
both in confinement and on range
The self selection group in confinement appeared to
over-consume protein at the expense of
energy resulting in a C/P ratio of 48:1."


Since the self selection pullets were the only ones able to freely consume as much protein as they wanted, perhaps that's why they laid slightly better?
The one group that was only provided grain, minerals and free range only consumed 9.3% protein!

Also, there was no "junk food" available to any of them, the self selection group only had corn, oats, minerals and "concentrate" to choose from.

the key words in your selected quotes are 'in confinement'.

I put the word junk in apostrophes because on BYC it is used (like 'treats') by the dogmatic few to mean whatever the person using it wants it to mean, which in the worst cases means anything but concentrate.

 

[Geena]

the key words in your selected quotes are 'in confinement'.

I put the word junk in apostrophes because on BYC it is used (like 'treats') by the dogmatic few to mean whatever the person using it wants it to mean, which in the worst cases means anything but concentrate.

Right, I saw that, only the self selection group that had access to range laid slightly better. Which makes you wonder if it was less about the food and more about their overall well being?

Yeah, junk food or treats can mean many different things depending on how one looks at it. What I meant was they only had grain, minerals and some apparent protein concentrate to choose from so not much of a selection there, or any one thing that might be especially preferred over another. So one can't really draw any specific conclusions from that.