new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Perris]

I love it that you bring this topic up for a larger group of readers.

The animal feed industry is NOT okay. In my country where they export a lot of animal flesh and animal products the food industry for animal feed (meat chickens, layers, ducks, pigs, cows, sheep, goats, etc. ) make huge amounts of money in trading and processing feed.
The owners are billionaires and belong to the richest of our country.
They buy GMO soy and corn from Brazil and contribute to what is happening with the rainforest and the Amazone area.
They created not only a problem with loads of dung, too much nitrogens and ongoing problems with the bird flu , but they also got into influencing politic.
They paid farmers to demonstrate against the intentions of the government to decrease the amount of cattle.
Our (and European) governments wants that many farmers decrease the amount of nitrogen by changing the way they work. From factory farming to circular or organic farming. With more dpace for animals and not so much import of feed.
The feed industry made people believe that the farmers should be supported in doing what they are good in. Making cheap meat, eggs and milk in overcrowded stables and not change a bit to the way they work. In the meantime the pollution goes on.
And the animal food industry had a great impact on the votes in the last election we had. A new political party for farmers (farmer-civilian movement) became the largest in all departments in the Netherlands.

So, if you ask me if I trust the animal feed to be the best for my chickens? I’d say NO!

thank you. If people find it informative and thought-provoking, then I'm glad.

 

[3KillerBs]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Sardines are the protein bit of the concentrated feed, not the cheap grain bit, and a little goes a long way. They also supply the (good) omega 3 oils in quantity, unlike plant oils which are dominated by omega 6.

I'm comparing the cost of protein to the cost of protein.

How much sardines, in grams or ounces, do you give to each chicken each week?

The 50# bag of scratch grain would be around US $16-17 for me.

 

[Perris]

I'm comparing the cost of protein to the cost of protein.

How much sardines, in grams or ounces, do you give to each chicken each week?

The 50# bag of scratch grain would be around US $16-17 for me.

I give a 120g/c. 4oz tin, cost about 40p, for the whole flock (currently 19) to share, about once a fortnight. It's really negligible on the scale of a backyard flock whose surplus eggs I sell at £2 for 6. I break the sardines up and stir them in amongst the grains so that the first to the food bowls can't scoff the lot before the slower/lower birds get there. I use the oil too since the whole grain/pea/boss feed doesn't have much oil and they need some in their diet.

The trouble with cheap meats (quite apart from the fact it's illegal to feed meat to poultry here) is that industrially produced meat is grown on concentrated feed, and if an animal has been confined and just fed that stuff, that is what it is itself made of (since we are all what we eat, from birth). I don't want to eat concentrates, first or second hand. (I really don't understand why people are surprised their backyard chickens' eggs taste like shop eggs if they keep high production breeds and feed them the same stuff commercial hens eat; how could it be otherwise?)

Sardines, as small fish, are (i) closer to the original nutrients in the sea (plankton) so less likely to accumulate toxins (unlike bigger fish, which eat smaller fish), (ii) uneconomic to farm, so not likely to have eaten concentrates, and (iii) harder to counterfeit, so less likely to be the subject of food/feed fraud. That's 3 good reasons to use them rather than other protein sources, don't you think?

 

[3KillerBs]

I give a 120g/c. 4oz tin, cost about 40p, for the whole flock (currently 19) to share, about once a fortnight. It's really negligible on the scale of a backyard flock whose surplus eggs I sell at £2 for 6. I break the sardines up and stir them in amongst the grains so that the first to the food bowls can't scoff the lot before the slower/lower birds get there. I use the oil too since the whole grain/pea/boss feed doesn't have much oil and they need some in their diet.

The trouble with cheap meats (quite apart from the fact it's illegal to feed meat to poultry here) is that industrially produced meat is grown on concentrated feed, and if an animal has been confined and just fed that stuff, that is what it is itself made of (since we are all what we eat, from birth). I don't want to eat concentrates, first or second hand. (I really don't understand why people are surprised their backyard chickens' eggs taste like shop eggs if they keep high production breeds and feed them the same stuff commercial hens eat; how could it be otherwise?)

Sardines, as small fish, are (i) closer to the original nutrients in the sea (plankton) so less likely to accumulate toxins (unlike bigger fish, which eat smaller fish), (ii) uneconomic to farm, so not likely to have eaten concentrates, and (iii) harder to counterfeit, so less likely to be the subject of food/feed fraud. That's 3 good reasons to use them rather than other protein sources, don't you think?

So, essentially a mouthful or two for each bird every couple weeks? An occasional supplement rather than a significant part of the routine diet?

Cost, then, is indeed very low, but I wouldn't even know how to calculate the amount of protein, etc. that it actually adds.

 

[Shadrach]

I must confess, I don't get the reasoning behind many of the arguements about feed and keeping conditions put forward by those who keep their chickens primarily for meat and eggs.
If one feeds them the same diet as the commercial concerns the eggs and meat are going to be very similar to that of the commercial concerns.
If one keeps the chickens confined in a coop and run then imo there is a strong possibliltiy that the keeping conditions are in fact worse than the pasture raised commercial alternatives.
Many of these people don't keep roosters, much like the commercial concerns.
All the other benefits one usually associates with ranged or free ranged chickens like, forage and garden management are lost.
Coops and containment are expensive if done properly.
Where exactly is the financial benefit and where is the improved life for the chicken?
One may as well buy eggs and meat from a pastured raised commercial concern. I bet, if a full cost analysis is done buy from pasture raised commercial concerns works out a lot cheaper than keeping a few chickens in similar condition in a back yard.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So, essentially a mouthful or two for each bird every couple weeks? An occasional supplement rather than a significant part of the routine diet?

Cost, then, is indeed very low, but I wouldn't even know how to calculate the amount of protein, etc. that it actually adds.

Negligible.

The difference between "fish meal" and fish from a can (sardines, tuna, etc) is that fish meal is scraps dried shredded processed (usually in a way that removes some oils) - but most importantly, DRIED. Fish from a can, like you would feed yourself, is about 80% water (sometimes more raw/fresh) and often packed in water or oil. Fish meal is commonly around 60% protein by weight. That makes fish meal 3-4x more protein dense than packed for humans canned fish products, on average. Due to processing methods, its often a better source of calcium and phosphorus than canned food products for us as well - for good or ill)

 

[Perris]

So, essentially a mouthful or two for each bird every couple weeks? An occasional supplement rather than a significant part of the routine diet?

Cost, then, is indeed very low, but I wouldn't even know how to calculate the amount of protein, etc. that it actually adds.

Yes that's right. I don't bother to calculate anything - I couldn't, since I don't even know what they're actually eating most of the day, as they forage where and on what they want. One of Spector's main arguments is that characterising food as healthy or not by % carbs, proteins, fats etc is misguided. It leads to the idiocy of a can of diet coke getting a green traffic light signal while an unpasteurized goat's cheese is flagged red (p. 60).

Moreover, calculation is necessary only if you are aiming to give the minimum possible. If you're not a commercial operation aiming to minimise costs and maximize financial returns, it's not important. I judge their health by their appearance, their behaviour, their poop, and their eggs. If their feathers are shiny, their comb colour red, their movement free and easy, their interest keen, their poop normal, and their eggs delicious, I judge we're doing OK. So I think you can tell by looking that these birds are healthy and their diet fine

 

[saysfaa]

... I judge their health by their appearance, their behaviour, their poop,... their movement free and easy, their interest keen ...

I call that bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

That is what my dad called it when he taught us how to catch health issues early. It is very effective for most things that affect health. It doesn't tell you what a problem is but it tells you to look for one that may not be obvious.

 

[Perris]

I call that bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

That is what my dad called it when he taught us how to catch health issues early. It is very effective for most things that affect health. It doesn't tell you what a problem is but it tells you to look for one that may not be obvious.

exactly.

And in case it's diet related, I then offer an under-the-weather bird a variety of foods such as live mealworms, milk-soaked bread, sultanas, banana etc. until we find something they want to eat. I let their instincts guide them and me, and I have been reading about half a dozen research papers with references to many more that confirm chickens of all ages and types can and do self-select what they need to rectify any nutritional deficiency they feel.

 

[Geena]

I must confess, I don't get the reasoning behind many of the arguements about feed and keeping conditions put forward by those who keep their chickens primarily for meat and eggs.
If one feeds them the same diet as the commercial concerns the eggs and meat are going to be very similar to that of the commercial concerns.
If one keeps the chickens confined in a coop and run then imo there is a strong possibliltiy that the keeping conditions are in fact worse than the pasture raised commercial alternatives.
Many of these people don't keep roosters, much like the commercial concerns.
All the other benefits one usually associates with ranged or free ranged chickens like, forage and garden management are lost.
Coops and containment are expensive if done properly.
Where exactly is the financial benefit and where is the improved life for the chicken?
One may as well buy eggs and meat from a pastured raised commercial concern. I bet, if a full cost analysis is done buy from pasture raised commercial concerns works out a lot cheaper than keeping a few chickens in similar condition in a back yard.

Very well put and I've often wondered the same thing.

I see people that raise cornishX in tiny pens, feed only commercial meat bird feed and butcher them at 8 weeks. I can't understand why they even bother, as the meat will be almost the exact same product you buy in the grocery store but will require a whole heck of a lot of work and cost even more.

I think most people who have BYC chickens started out thinking that they'd be a cheap and easy source eggs, LOL.

I'm guessing for a lot of folks it's more about the feeling of accomplishment and self sufficiency they are after? Which is of course a ruse as well, if you are buying chicks from a hatchery and feeding pellets you are still just as dependent.