new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[U_Stormcrow]

Our chickens eat all the berries before they get a chance to ripen. But its less than a pint a year. I'll probably add two more plants this year, keep expanding the blueberry garden, bit by bit. I currently have one row of 4 plants, six foot on center. So either I put in two more plants to extend the row, or I set a second row ten foot from the first and staggered three feet - but that means first clearing blackberry bramble, and its close to where the RV will be towed through when I move it.

So, likely continue the first row.

I have four grape arbors/trellis/lines as well - two three year old, two essentially one year old. The olders are muscadine - seeded, native. The youngers are seedless, and I'm holding out hope - I've already lost one seedless, and the second did nvery poorly last year, so I'm counting this year as its first (again).

and tying it back to the original conversation? Soil type, quality, climate has a LOT to do with the quality of pasture forage. Assuming that because you have good number of acres means you have good forage is definitely NOT a safe assumption.

 

[Perris]

and tying it back to the original conversation? Soil type, quality, climate has a LOT to do with the quality of pasture forage. Assuming that because you have good number of acres means you have good forage is definitely NOT a safe assumption.

that's very true. Spector's book is focussed on looking at the quality instead of the quantity of food, and the same may be said for forage. Several posts here have noted, and there are research papers that confirm it, that - in confined conditions where the only feed choices are what the keeper provides - chickens will eat more of something that is low quality in the effort to acquire what they want from it, and less of something which provides what they seek in fewer bites.

E.g. "Hens showed a similar preference for unsoiled diet when foraging for corn, which was visually distinctive from the diet. In order from highest to lowest, most corn was consumed from 0%, 33% and 66% or 100% excreta diets. Corn kernels were mixed into the 134 g of diet in each container, meaning hens had to dig in increasing excreta levels (33%, 66% and 100% excreta) to find 81%, 60% and 51% of the corn kernels, respectively. To put this in perspective, hens only consumed 28%, 10% and 8% of these excreta diets, respectively, which indicates that hens did not encounter the corn kernels by chance but rather were specifically digging for the corn kernels, especially in the 66% and 100% excreta diets"
https://doi.org/10.1017/S1751731118001143 which is an open access article from 2018, anyone can access it.

I don't know if any of the deep litter fans will want to chip in here.

 

[Perris]

also to help get us back on track, I found this open access paper

Gastrointestinal microbiomes of broilers and layer hens in alternative production systems
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psj.2019.12.017

which will give anyone interested some useful information on the benefits of free ranging for your chickens' gut health. It's not as good as Spector on people's microbiomes and guts, but it's catching up, as I said at the start of this thread.

 

[Perris]

here's a fun, cheap and easy way to gauge your soil health:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-19/healthy-soil-microbes-soil-your-undies-campaign/100071254

 

[saysfaa]

...

I don't know if any of the deep litter fans will want to chip in here.

Sure.
"...Despite the presence of freely available feed [from the excreta-free feed] birds consumed an average of 61.3 g of excreta diet per day (~37.2 g of the 33%, ~13.7 g of the 66%, and ~10.4 g of the 100% excreta diet)..."

Given a choice in the experiment, they chose to eat some.

In deep litter, they can choose to eat it or not.

 

[Perris]

Sure.
"...Despite the presence of freely available feed [from the excreta-free feed] birds consumed an average of 61.3 g of excreta diet per day (~37.2 g of the 33%, ~13.7 g of the 66%, and ~10.4 g of the 100% excreta diet)..."

Given a choice in the experiment, they chose to eat some.

In deep litter, they can choose to eat it or not.

you are the one person I can rely on to actually read the papers in the links Saysfaa
(among the non-lurkers at any rate). The fecal transplant aspect is really important I think, and probably has a big role to play in developing the immunity of younger birds in a multigenerational flock.

 

[saysfaa]

...The fecal transplant aspect is really important I think, and probably has a big role to play in developing the immunity of younger birds in a multigenerational flock.

I think so too.
I wrote and deleted (several times) a bit about the importance of it in people also. I worked with a doctor who realized this in patients who had lost their natural gut fauna - usually due to either the effects of their medical problem or to the effects of the meds. Usually compounded by the sterility of medical facilities (attempted sterility, anyway.) He was developing a less icky method of replacing it. Yogurt and such covers some types of the microbes but not nearly all of them. Technically, I volunteered where he worked.

For chickens, I think deep litter adds a bit of "space" for the excreta to go. I know it isn't as good as having a larger area to range in but does allow the matter to be less concentrated for the given space. I think it gives a few other benefits, too, that aren't particularly relevant here.

I think quite a few other non-lurkers read links too, whether or not they comment on them.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I'm among the fortunate. In spite of my lousy land, I have a lot of it, and I deep litter, too. and have a seperate grow out pen where the hatchlings can be exposed to the soils (and the droppings of past hatchlings) while being protected from predators and larger flock members. and of course I'm working on pasture biodiversity.

Most aren't so fortunate that they can take advantage of so many methods to improve their chicken's conditions.

Of course, most didn't lose two promising hatchlings to a great horned owl (we strongly suspect) this week. Or suffer a horrific hatch rate in incubation due to a host of (currently unkown) factors.

Win some, lose some.

 

[Sally PB]

close to where the RV will be towed through when I move it.

What's the reason for moving, if I may ask?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

What's the reason for moving, if I may ask?

We set it at the top of the hill, where it functions in part as a construction trailer. Also allows us to oversee the pasture. Unfortunately, we also oriented it so it broadsides this summer sun, and get s the most wind. Will be moving it about 300 ft to put it on the concrete pad where the garage will eventually be. Less Direct sun, much more wind protected. Also, I now have water and power down there, which was previously not the case.

In summary? We wanted a different view.