new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Perris]

another report is out emphasising the role of gut microbiota in obesity. Summary here
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ria-may-predict-future-obesity-study-suggests

 

[saysfaa]

but dietary deficiencies show in things like curled toes and poor feathering, not something any bird can hide.

Deficiencies of some things do if they are severe enough.

Others things and/or less severity results in a weakened system or systems so that a stress that would be a brief and mild episode results in dropping dead. Or in lingering death or in long-term lingering illness without quite killing them.

Example:
"...Newly hatched chicks fed a diet totally devoid of magnesium live only a few days. They grow slowly, are lethargic, and often pant and gasp. When disturbed, they exhibit brief convulsions and become comatose, which is sometimes temporary but often fatal. Mortality is quite high on diets only marginally deficient in magnesium, even though growth of survivors may approach that of control birds...." Merck vet manual

Among the citations of related studies is a study about magnesium supplements reducing the effects of heat stress.

If a bird dies of "heat stress" - was it really from heat stress or was it actually from magnesium deficiency?

An example of less overt effects of deficiencies from people:
"...Certain health conditions and diseases, including vitamin D deficiency, can damage peritubular capillaries. This damage can lead to capillary rarefaction, or a loss in density in the capillaries. The loss in density affects how they work.

Damaged peritubular capillaries aren’t very good at repairing themselves. Because damaged capillaries can’t work like they should, peritubular capillary rarefaction is associated with kidney disease and hypertension (high blood pressure). These conditions are very common. Nearly half of all adults in the United States have hypertension, and around 15% of adults have some type of chronic kidney disease. ..." Cleveland Clinic

Perhaps some people have a vitamin D deficiency rather than a kidney disease?

 

[saysfaa]

another report is out emphasising the role of gut microbiota in obesity. Summary here
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ria-may-predict-future-obesity-study-suggests

Interesting. The proportions of the different kinds of bacteria seems similar to the balance between bacteria and yeast in the gut. We need both.

It might be similar for the kinds of bacteria that article talked about. It didn't say what the interventions might be. It may make a bigger difference to change the environment of the gut than try to kill off the bad kinds faster than the good kinds or to add more good kinds. Similar to cutting sugar intake to favor bacteria over yeast when someone has a yeast infection.

 

[Perris]

Deficiencies of some things do if they are severe enough.

Others things and/or less severity results in a weakened system or systems so that a stress that would be a brief and mild episode results in dropping dead. Or in lingering death or in long-term lingering illness without quite killing them.

Example:
"...Newly hatched chicks fed a diet totally devoid of magnesium live only a few days. They grow slowly, are lethargic, and often pant and gasp. When disturbed, they exhibit brief convulsions and become comatose, which is sometimes temporary but often fatal. Mortality is quite high on diets only marginally deficient in magnesium, even though growth of survivors may approach that of control birds...." Merck vet manual

Among the citations of related studies is a study about magnesium supplements reducing the effects of heat stress.

If a bird dies of "heat stress" - was it really from heat stress or was it actually from magnesium deficiency?

An example of less overt effects of deficiencies from people:
"...Certain health conditions and diseases, including vitamin D deficiency, can damage peritubular capillaries. This damage can lead to capillary rarefaction, or a loss in density in the capillaries. The loss in density affects how they work.

Damaged peritubular capillaries aren’t very good at repairing themselves. Because damaged capillaries can’t work like they should, peritubular capillary rarefaction is associated with kidney disease and hypertension (high blood pressure). These conditions are very common. Nearly half of all adults in the United States have hypertension, and around 15% of adults have some type of chronic kidney disease. ..." Cleveland Clinic

Perhaps some people have a vitamin D deficiency rather than a kidney disease?

There are quite a few issues here, but the bit of the Merck manual immediately before the first bit you quoted says "Natural feed ingredients are rich in magnesium; thus, deficiency is rare and magnesium is never specifically used as a supplement to poultry diets". So I can't see the relevance to our discussion; the chicks fed a completely magnesium deficient diet were obviously lab animals on an unnatural diet for experimental purposes.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

There are quite a few issues here, but the bit of the Merck manual immediately before the first bit you quoted says "Natural feed ingredients are rich in magnesium; thus, deficiency is rare and magnesium is never specifically used as a supplement to poultry diets". So I can't see the relevance to our discussion; the chicks fed a completely magnesium deficient diet were obviously lab animals on an unnatural diet for experimental purposes.

Used for purposes of illustration.

A diet deficient in selenium might be a better example, as there are so many grounds deficient in selenium, and the needs are so small no home feed maker is going to test for it, yet its so important essentially every major feed maker ensures it is added to their formulations. I've had my soils tested, selenium deficiency - though its clearly deficient - isn't even mentioned on the most common tests.

Certain symptoms of selenium deficiency are also easily misdiagnosed - just as symptoms of other deficiencies can be mistaken for selenium deficiency.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Now as it turns out, whole wheat is considered a good source of Selenium. Know what happens when you overlay a map of US winter wheat production (the high protein stuff) with a map of US selenium levels?

Yup. Location matters. Wheat coming out of Kansas tends to have much higher levels of Selenium than wheat coming out of Washington.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Spring wheat, on the other hand, is coming largely from high selenium regions of the nation. I Didn't overlay the maps, North Dakota is lit up nicely on the Se map, as is the northern and eastern parts of Montana.

 

[Sally PB]

@U_Stormcrow, very interesting! There is a flour mill near by in Lowell, MI. We're in a low selenium area.

I'm guessing that selenium is one of the "enrichments" added to flour...? Which is all a moot point for me, since I'm gluten free. Now I'm wondering where I get my selenium, other than my One-A-Day. I don't eat fish, almost ever.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormcrow, very interesting! There is a flour mill near by in Lowell, MI. We're in a low selenium area.

I'm guessing that selenium is one of the "enrichments" added to flour...? Which is all a moot point for me, since I'm gluten free. Now I'm wondering where I get my selenium, other than my One-A-Day. I don't eat fish, almost ever.

Animal proteins and nuts? Some nuts are quite high in it. A few beans.

If commercial chicken feeds were less reliant on corn and soy, there would be less need for consistent supplimentation - but for all soy's other benefits in chicken feeds, a high source of bioavalable selenium it is not.

 

[saysfaa]

Magnesium is relevant because it clearly shows the difference between a severe deficiency with the grotesque results that you indicated anyone could see in a bird vs a mild deficiency that can result in a bird keeling over dead without any overt symptoms of the deficiency until some kind of stress is added.

Selenium is easier but I've brought it up so many times, I spent two minutes looking for something else this time. Selenium is essential for the immune system, among other things. People tend to think they have a virulent germ rather than a weak immune system from lack of selenium. Not quite keeling over but just as dead.

Calcium is also a good example, I think, but messier because so many other nutrients affect the availability of calcium. And, like sodium, it controls the most basic bodily functions (like the ion gates of the cells) so it is very well protected. That makes effects hard to distinguish from other factors.

I think iodine is a good example of serious effects (again, not keeling over suddenly though). It has serious effects besides the thyroid related ones, some at mild deficiency levels. But I know about it from family members going to drs that think outside the box. I don't know the details and it will be a while before I dig into that topic. Like selenium, iodine is highly variable in its global distribution.