new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Perris]

I'm not so sure that production hens are that different from other modern breeds; @Shadrach 's thread on some ex-production rescue hens has been an eye-opener on that topic. In case you don't know it, it's here https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/shadrachs-ex-battery-and-rescued-chickens-thread.1502267/
Lots to read, but very informative.

 

[saysfaa]

You don't need to add methionine when your chickens are eating meat (the toads).

And because it is sometimes nice to find support for what we see happening...

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/851473/
".. The poisoning by [cane] toad has been reported in different species including dogs, lizards, snakes, opossums, cats, pigs, chickens, ducks, turtles, frogs, goannas, raptors, marsupial mammal, and ornamental and nonornamental fish [8–17]. Although the clinical signs induced by R. marina toxicity are well established in humans and mammals, its effects and pathological changes in birds are limited. This study aimed to evaluate the pathological changes that occur after administering different doses of ... venom to Gallus gallus domesticus chicks. ...

In this study, the chickens that received different doses of R. jimi parotoid glands secretion showed no clinical signs of toxicity. Similarly, Beckmann and Shine [15] conducted a study involving chickens receiving water in which R. marina toads remained for 36 h, without an alternate source of water for 7 h. The study results confirmed that the chickens showed no signs of toxicity [15]. Furthermore, previous studies have shown that consuming R. marina tadpoles did not cause any clinical signs of toxicity in chickens [15] and domestic ducks [21]. ..."

In the two groups with the highest concentrations of the venom, they did find damage of organs when examining tissue under microscopes. Every substance causes damage at high enough doses; I didn't dig deep enough to find out how their concentrations compare to naturally occuring concentrations other than they concentrated from the pariotal glands which are the most toxic part.

In line with what I think is the point of this thread - they said some species of birds are more sensitive to the toxins than other species and will eat only the less toxic parts of the toads - in one case only the tongues - or only the less toxic tadpoles. Other species are less sensitive and eat the whole toads.

So, assuming there are enough options, just let the chickens choose from their options instead of stressing over the lab results of things like amino acids or toxicity. Besides, even if you found published tables, they would not list values for different parts or life stages or diets of the toads and so on.

Edit to add: if you want more peace of mind, there are several published papers that talk about amino acid levels in toads or toad tadpoles as they have been used in fish feed or chicken feed. So far, I haven't found any without pay walls so won't try to link any but they feel like support for toads as similar to most other meat sources including for MET.

 

[EddieSalita]

You don't need to add methionine when your chickens are eating meat (the toads).

And because it is sometimes nice to find support for what we see happening...

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/851473/
".. The poisoning by [cane] toad has been reported in different species including dogs, lizards, snakes, opossums, cats, pigs, chickens, ducks, turtles, frogs, goannas, raptors, marsupial mammal, and ornamental and nonornamental fish [8–17]. Although the clinical signs induced by R. marina toxicity are well established in humans and mammals, its effects and pathological changes in birds are limited. This study aimed to evaluate the pathological changes that occur after administering different doses of ... venom to Gallus gallus domesticus chicks. ...

In this study, the chickens that received different doses of R. jimi parotoid glands secretion showed no clinical signs of toxicity. Similarly, Beckmann and Shine [15] conducted a study involving chickens receiving water in which R. marina toads remained for 36 h, without an alternate source of water for 7 h. The study results confirmed that the chickens showed no signs of toxicity [15]. Furthermore, previous studies have shown that consuming R. marina tadpoles did not cause any clinical signs of toxicity in chickens [15] and domestic ducks [21]. ..."

In the two groups with the highest concentrations of the venom, they did find damage of organs when examining tissue under microscopes. Every substance causes damage at high enough doses; I didn't dig deep enough to find out how their concentrations compare to naturally occuring concentrations.

In line with what I think is the point of this thread - they said some species of birds are more sensitive to the toxins than other species and will eat only the less toxic parts of the toads - in one case only the tongues - or only the less toxic tadpoles. Other species are less sensitive and eat the whole toads.

So, assuming there are enough options, just let the chickens choose from their options instead of stressing over the lab results of things like amino acids or toxicity. Besides, even if you found published tables, they would not list values for different parts or life stages or diets of the toads and so on.

I've done quite a bit of research on the topic also. They are a feral pest that is a constant presence in my home state. They disappear in Burrows in the far southern parts for a few short months. In the north where I grew up They are year round. They have caused several native predators to become endangered due to their toxicity. As mentioned they kill many mammals. Some have adapted. I've watched crows turn them over and just eat the heart, leaving the rest. Quite amazing.
Of course even knowing people successfully keep chickens here I had to check the risks. As you reference, there really isn't any.

What's particularly interesting is that the chickens will just gobble down smaller young toads and toadlets. If they are larger they will play chasies with them, flicking, shaking and generally, kicking it around for a few minutes until its a limp rag before finally consuming it.
For those unfamiliar a toad releases its poison which seeps from glands behind its eyes. It only does this when agitated.
In their native range a native predator of the Cane toad is the Coati. The Coati catches a toad then spends quite a bit of time stomping and scraping it around on the first floor to get it to release its poison and rub it off before consuming. A behaviour the chicken is essentially simulating on the larger toads. Obviously there is also a significant tolerance as well. I've seen my hens gobble down 10+ fingernail sized toads without playing first in just a minute or two.

Interesting stuff. There is certainly no shortage of these pests. 1000 chickens wouldn't make a noticeable difference in their numbers. Appreciate the reassurance on their value as food. As you say.... it's nice to find support. I worry too much perhaps. I could go scoop up a kilogram of tadpoles right now in about 2 minutes from the dam/pond.

 

[NorthwoodsChick]

I recommend “The big fat surprise” by Nina Teicholz (2014). While not poultry related, the premise is the same regarding low fat processed food.
This book would be a great read for those interested in how fats play a vital role in nutrition and wellness from a historical perspective as it pertains to human heart disease.
https://www.amazon.com/Nina-Teicholz/e/B00IRBM8DQ/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

 

[Morrigan]

You don't need to add methionine when your chickens are eating meat (the toads).

This sounds right to me as well. In times when the toads are burrowing or scarce, I think you could offer kangaroo meat 2 to 3 times a week and they will be good. Like humans they don't need Met. or other nutrients, in exact portions every day. They just need them in the aggregate over reasonable time periods.

Your description of how your chickens eat the toads was fascinating.

I recommend “The big fat surprise” by Nina Teicholz (2014).

I read that as well a few years back. It changed the way I eat. I also think chickens have a higher fat tolerance than the 5-6% number that's in commercial. feed.

 

[NatJ]

I also think chickens have a higher fat tolerance than the 5-6% number that's in commercial. feed.

According to any research I can find, that fat limit is based on making pellets that will behave properly in the feeders. The chickens themselves are fine with more.

For example, here's a quote from a commercial poultry company:
"A crude fat level of at least 5% in layer diets is highly recommended... To achieve this 5%, 2-3% of fat or oil has to be added, even to a corn/soy diet. Higher levels of crude fat and added fat/oil are even more beneficial. The maximum amount is defined more by technical reasons than by nutritional ones, as diets of up to 7.5% of crude fat are excellent for layers. This has been proven in different circumstances and climates all around the world."

https://lohmann-breeders.com/crude-fat-in-layer-nutrition/
(I trust the commercial poultry industry to know what things will kill a hen or make her quit laying before she reaches the age they want to cull her. I do not trust them to keep her healthy past that point. But this was the first convenient quote I could find.)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

as long as the diet is otherwise balanced for it - increased fats need to be offset by reduced carbs - and some fats are nutritionally better than others.

 

[Morrigan]

as long as the diet is otherwise balanced for it - increased fats need to be offset by reduced carbs - and some fats are nutritionally better than others.

Yes. There is a big difference between giving your chickens say, corn oil, vs. a high quality protein that also contains fat. I think a chicken given access to high quality proteins with fat -- say beetles or even a hanging goat's head -- will naturally consume less feed.

There's not a lot of great research, but what I've been able to find suggests that high energy/low protein diets cause fatty liver disease. So, if you give low-protein but high energy fats (or carbs for that matter) you are going to run into problems.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Can confirm our birds love goat head and ribs. Can't really speak to the nutrition other than the theory.

 

[Morrigan]

If they got the brains, they are got a goodly amount of fat, but also an extremely nutritious treat. You have lucky chickens.