newbie question on cross breeding

[ashlieneevel]

Thanks June. That much i knew lol.Of course I would breed to standard. Why breed if its not going to be to SOP? I'm certainly not interested in trying to create a new breed or something bastardized lol. I don't know if people would consider my choices a good pick or not but they're the birds that i like, that i feel something for, and if I bred them I would be breeding them because I like the breed and not for any other reason. I'm sure there are people that pick certain types over others for other various reasons but to me if its not something I really want to look at and interact with every day then it wouldn't be worth me investing the time and energy.

(edited to add the word "or")

 

[junebuggena]

There are lots of reasons to breed other than to produce SOP. I'm breeding to make black sexlink Easter Eggers. Neither sexlinks nor Easter Eggers are standard breeds, but I love the Easter Eggers' fluffy faces and the different colored eggs. I don't love my Easter Eggers production rates, but my barred Rocks are awesome layers. Their sexlink chicks will be even better producers, and they might lay green eggs, and as a bonus, they can be sexed at hatch. I also have a few Easter Egger pullets, so I'm hoping to produce more birds with my rooster's coloring. I'm hatching my Australorps' eggs just to see what those will look like cross with my rooster. Some people just like having a bunch of really unique looking birds.

 

[ashlieneevel]

You're absolutely correct I misspoke. I was thinking in terms of my own goals and not considering what other peoples reasons might be so I apologize to you and to anyone else i might have unintentionally poo poo'd. In my mind i was trying to express that my interest was to create superior specimens of the breeds I mentioned as opposed to just trying to breed them for the sake of breeding something. I'm good for an "open mouth insert foot" every now and again so once again sorry about that I was just thinking in terms of my reasoning.

 

[Michael OShay]

In my mind i was trying to express that my interest was to create superior specimens of the breeds I mentioned as opposed to just trying to breed them for the sake of breeding something.

This is a worthy goal as long as you understand that the term "superior specimens" of a particular breed is somewhat subjective depending on how you define a superior specimen. Supposedly the superior specimen of each breed has already been defined by the SOPs. If that is the case, the the superior specimen of a breed is the one that conforms to SOP standards. To breed anything with different characteristics or qualities than the SOP for that breed is by definition "to breed something other than that particular breed."

 

[ashlieneevel]

By Superior Specimen I meant the best possible example of the breed in accordance with the SOP as the goal. For the Ameraucanas and the Black Copper Marans in particular, I also want to breed for intensity of the egg color, bluest blue for the ams and darkest brown/chocolate for the BCM. I don't think that would be in conflict with the stated goal but since i honestly don't know my ... from a hole in the ground about all this stuff maybe it does and I'm just too green to realize. Its really weird the direction this thread turned. It started about something completely different to what were talking about now lol. It went from me asking a ( stupid) question about would you get the same kind of offspring if you bred breed X roo to breed Y hen as you would breeding Breed Y Roo to breed X hen (which has been answered) and turned into my aspirations to one day breed chickens lol. Anyways, before this thread gets even further off track we'll bring it all to a close. Though I'm still happy to hear any suggestions on where to start in understanding how to breed with purpose and understanding genetics. book suggestions perhaps

Thanks to all who contributed

 

[Michael OShay]

By Superior Specimen I meant the best possible example of the breed in accordance with the SOP as the goal. For the Ameraucanas and the Black Copper Marans in particular, I also want to breed for intensity of the egg color, bluest blue for the ams and darkest brown/chocolate for the BCM. I don't think that would be in conflict with the stated goal but since i honestly don't know my ... from a hole in the ground about all this stuff maybe it does and I'm just too green to realize. Its really weird the direction this thread turned. It started about something completely different to what were talking about now lol. It went from me asking a ( stupid) question about would you get the same kind of offspring if you bred breed X roo to breed Y hen as you would breeding Breed Y Roo to breed X hen (which has been answered) and turned into my aspirations to one day breed chickens lol. Anyways, before this thread gets even further off track we'll bring it all to a close. Though I'm still happy to hear any suggestions on where to start in understanding how to breed with purpose and understanding genetics. book suggestions perhaps

Thanks to all who contributed

LOL! Gotcha. That happens a lot with these threads on BYC. You'll have quite a challenge with the Ameraucanas as the standards for true Ameraucanas are meticulous; the toughest of any breed and the Ameraucana Breeders Club considers any bird that deviates the slightest from those standards to be an Easter Egger and not a true Ameraucana. Good luck in your breeding efforts.

 

[ashlieneevel]

Thanks. It wont be happening anytime soon. Like I said im trying to learn how all of it works with genetics and how to breed properly and all that. I'm not the type of person to just try to figure it out as I go along. I'm more the research it till your eyes bleed and come up with a game plan kinda gal even if it takes a long time. I hate feeling unprepared. well thanks again

 

[Michael OShay]

Thanks. It wont be happening anytime soon. Like I said im trying to learn how all of it works with genetics and how to breed properly and all that. I'm not the type of person to just try to figure it out as I go along. I'm more the research it till your eyes bleed and come up with a game plan kinda gal even if it takes a long time. I hate feeling unprepared. well thanks again

You're welcome.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi and welcome!
Here ya go:

If I could have only 8 books
in my Library they would be :

1. Genetics of Chicken Colours-The Basics
http://chickencolours.com/

2. Genetics of Chicken Extremities
http://chickencolours.com/

3. APA 2010 Standard of Perfection
http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/store.htm

4. The Sussex Fowl
By Sharpe 1920 .
Sharpe was one of the 3 great secrateries of the Sussex Poultry Club
in England. The other 2 were Leo Outram and Judge Clem Watson.
Sharpe was a legendary Sussex breeder and originated the
Light Sussex. This book is a classic. ( read online free)
http://newcatalog.library.cornell.edu/catalog/6721632

5. 21st Century Poultry Breeding
by Grant Brereton
http://poultrykeeper.com/book-reviews/21st-century-poultry-breeding-book-review
http://www.amazon.com/Century-Poultry-Breeding-Grant-Brereton/dp/0947870571

6. Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. c.1
by Card, Wetherell Henry. Published 1912
This is a small 55 page book. A treasure of distilled knowledge.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Note these are Laws, not opinions or theories. Judge Card was known
for his ability to take a complicated genetics topic and make it simple.
(read online free)

7. The Light Sussex
by Broomhead, William White, 1875-
Published 1921
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=2up;seq=4
W.W. Broomhead was one of the three Broomhead brothers who were noted poultry men in England. He was a Sussex expert and Judge for the Sussex Poultry Club. He later went on to become President of the Poultry Club of Britain. This little 8 page gem is a classic because of the author's distinguished reputation and his insightful knowledge of the breed. W.W. Broomhead also edited one of the editions of the Poultry Club Standards as well as the Sussex Standard itself.
It matters not which variety one has, this brochure's study of breed type applies to all. Type is the breed. Blood tells. ( read free online )

8.
American Poultry Advocate - Volume 26 - Feb. 1918 - Page 202
The Proper Color of Speckled Sussex
An article written by Mr. A. J. Falkenstein,
the leading English breeder of Speckled Sussex,
A speech given in 1917 ( read free online)
books.google.com/books?id=jCtJAAAAYAAJ
During this period, many Speckled Sussex had a more ginger colored
ground color rather than the desired dark color. Mr. Falkenstein
popularized the darker color and, following his lead, the Sussex fancy
moved the Speckled Sussex to the lovely mahogany bay ground color
we see today. You can see the change in the tobacco cards issued:
1911 : http://tinyurl.com/ppo2ske
1930's : http://tinyurl.com/mo6aaw2
One of the interesting parts of this speech are the instructions on
selecting for proper color while the chick is in chick down.

And for deeper study

9. the 3 DVD set
by Danne Honour
which includes much rare lit on the "Art of Breeding".

10. Art and Science in Breeding : Creating Better Chickens
by Margaret E. Derry.
A fantastic book on the development of poultry breeding by a
talented author who writes on the various histories of animal breeding.
Ms. Derry has a wonderful turn of the pen when writing about
the history of animal breeding. She has had published a total
of 6 books. These 3 books are listed in order of year published:

Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies and Arabian Horses since 1800 (2003)
By Margaret E. Derry
http://www.poplarlane.net/books/animals-and-culture-series/bred-for-perfection-shorthorn-cattle-collies-and-arabian-horses-since-1800-2003/

Art and Science in Breeding: Creating Better Chickens
By Margaret E. Derry
http://www.utppublishing.com/Art-and-Science-in-Breeding-Creating-Better-Chickens.html

and coming in Nov. 2014:
Masterminding Nature: The Breeding of Animals, 1750-2010
By Margaret E. Derry
http://www.utppublishing.com/Masterminding-Nature-The-Breeding-of-Animals-1750-2010.html

Bookfinder is a massive mega booksearch database. Been around a long time.
http://www.bookfinder.com/
Some of these books may be available as used editions for a good price. Beware if you find SOP's tho. The APA never relinquished their copyright on the SOP. Some fly-by-night reprinters have taken the old pre-1926 editions and reprinted them illegally. Nabu Press is one of them. Often they are cheap OCR copies with many typos because of the cheap scanning.
For me, the first 3 books are simply essential.
Best Success,
Karen and the Light Sussex
in western PA, USA

 

[3riverschick]

Hi!,
The Sussex is a classic dual purpose farm fowl. Usually one can fine good poultry info in the Sussex lit, even if one isn't specifically breeding the Sussex breed.
Best,
Karen