Nutrition especially for your Peas

[frenchblackcopper]

One other option for cheap increased protein levels is by hand feeding boiled whole soybeans to your flock daily.Soybeans by themselves are on average 36.5% protein.You must boil them first for 15 minutes to render the trypsin worhtless to poultry,then drain them off and keep in an airtight container in a fridge.In post #53 above I showed how to come at a protein level,,my experience is my peas will eat between 8-10 dry ounces of feed per day.Using 8oz as an example,and using a 16% layer crumble for chickens as the main feed,let's divide the 8oz into 3 equal 2oz "units" of 16" layer crumbles,with I unit,or 2oz of the boiled 37.5% soybeans.16+16+16+37.5 = 85 protein units. Divide 85 by 4-2oz "units" gives us a very respectable 21.25% protein level.
A bushel of soybeans weighs 60 lbs,,times 16oz per pound = 960oz. A bushel of plain old soybeans is now selling for $10.25 per bushel or 1.06 cents per ounce,or 2.12 cents per bird,per day adding 2oz to their diet. You may have maybe $1.00 tied up in boiling for 15 minutes,,but still you can see there is yet another way to increase protein levels on the "cheap" here.

 

[Madmat]

No thank you to soy. Especially how much is GMO. I got into this to get away from that crap! If I wanted soy fed chickens, I'd buy grocery store eggs. The more you read about feeding your flock soy, the less you'll do it I promise.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

I've never said "SOY" was the best source of protein,but Soybeans are very high in some much needed minerals and trace elements not found in other sources of affordable protein.GMO does not mean it's bad for feeding,and also GMO is ONLY sold as seed for planting in fields for crops,,whether it's been modified to accept some forms of herbicides,or for specific other traits that cannot be achieved in any other ways. "Maize" as it once was called,is now called Dent Corn,or Field corn. The Corn that we plant and use today is nothing,NOTHING like the original "maize" seed from centuries ago. Mayans in south america,thru countless years of crossing-pollinating-cross pollinating has now changed the original "maize" from a foxtail looking piece of grass stem,to a upright tall growing plant that now grows an ear with rows of kernals surrounding it. Is this not also GMO?? Thru genetic mutation,maize has now become dent corn,,as we better know as field corn,which is used in almost every kind of low cost feed there is,from swine,poultry,cattle,fish,ect. Since I have never heard of an "Organic" peafowl market,GMO doesn't restrict the certified "Organic" label,frankly since one doesn't exist and I doubt it ever will for Peafowl.
Protein imput costs for feed is the most expensive ingredient. I just priced fish meal for my next ton of feed to be made in a few weeks and it's 89 cents per pound.But it is 60% crude protein with a 55% TDM analysis. Corn as I also mentioned is extensively used as the main feedstuff in all sorts of feed.You mention soybeans being GMO,,I bring up the point how for over many centuries corn too has been genetically modified into the plant it is now. But also in todays research labs,Dent Field corn also is highly genetically modified to accept herbicides that are non-selective. Unless you grow 100% of your feedstuffs,and from seeds you have grown the previous year,do your own mixing,grinding,measuring,I doubt anyone can guarantee there is not one molecule within a ton of mixed feed,that somehow was not engineered in a lab. Many GMO specific seeds are engineered for chemical resistance,higher starch content,thinner endosperm layer,less leaves around the corn ear,for much faster dry-down at harvest,fusarium and diplodia root rot,corn root worm,corn borer,
This maybe off subject a bit,but when raising cattle we always planted enough acres into alfalfa to grow enough hay for 200 days of total on-feed during the winter. The first cutting was always around the end of May,,30 days later with good rains is normally when you get the second cutting,and so forth.90% of the time,when it was getting close to the second cuttings timeframe,we would notice the alfalfa plants were starting to "stunt" and getting yellow leaves,almost to the point of dying off.I don't know how many here knows what a potato leaf hopper is,,but they are small enough to get thru a window screen,and they do bite. These little insects are what caused the alfalfa to start to die off. You only had one choice back then,and that was to cut the hay,bale it,then spray the entire field with Lorsban to kill the leaf hoppers so you would at least get one more cutting of hay,forgetting about the fourth cutting because of the stunting and setting back the leaf hoppers had already caused.
Now they have GMO alfalfa specific for potato leaf hopper resistance. One bite into the plant,and it will kill them. I would much rather of had this option back then to buy GMO seed resistant to insects,rather than lose tons of yield,have to spray with chemicals to kill them,knowing my cattle in 5 months would be consuming this hay.The cost of spraying was over $35 per acre back then,I owned my own full flotation floater spray truck,and sprayed chemicals on tens of thousands of acres each year,,and I for one,am for GMO in certain circumstances,over spraying harmful chemicals,losing tens of thousands of dollars invested in a growing crop,or having to buy supplemental feed because my crop was injured or killed off by a pest so small,it can get thru a window screen.

 

[Trefoil]

Trefoil,,later today I will get a pic of the feed,and an analysis(not lab based) but from known levels in the feed we mixed.Calcium can be harmful if too much is fed. 2 specific amino acids can be harmful as well,but by the way the supplement is made,renders one of them not an issue,I have recorded results from the two breeding groups that was fed this feed for the past two breeding seasons. But I have nothing prior to that on these two groups because we didn't have them yet.One valuable comparison I made this year was both my control groups that consisted of total of 2 peacocks(Midnight b/s and BSSP) with their hens numbering a total of 8,,,to my big pen of India Blues,which had 8 hens,and a IB Pied peacock and a barred IB Peacock,,exact same number of birds.
Some may think it's strange but I don't place a lot of value of my IB pen,all the birds in that pen was hatched by me,and all will be 4 years old this coming year,only variable is my BSSP Peacock and 2 hens are maybe 6 years old,all the Midnights are coming 4 year olds,same as the IB pen.
In 2012,the first year the IB pen could breed and lay eggs,I had about a 60% higher egg laying and hatch rate,than this past summer,and they matured another year.In 2012,the IB pen with 8 hens laid an average of 17 eggs per hen,this year that average was down to 8 eggs per hen.My midnight and bssp pen last year averaged 24 and 28 eggs per hen respectively,,this year that number increased to 27 for the Midnight pen per hen,and 31 eggs per hen from the bssp hens. Each year I start recording April 15th-August 15th. The IB pen was fed commercial layer crumbles with a 16% protein value both this and last year,while my Midnights and BSSP pen was fed my 26% protein custom mixed feed with our special 2 additives.

Sorry to go back so far, I somehow had lost tract of this thread. The difference in protein alone could account for the difference in # and quality of eggs laid, so its not a viable test. To get reliable results you would need to have 4 pens of birds raised the same. Give one pen the 28% without your 2 ingredients,one pen 28% with your ingredients, one pen with lower protein % (I wouldn't go 16% because I don't feed that low a % feed to any of my peas), and another with the same lower protein % with your 2 ingredients. The results over a couple of years would tell you how valuable your 2 ingredients are and which % protein works the best. It wouldn't be a completely accurate test because of the low numbers, lack of possible long term results, but it should give you a good idea. Because the necessary inbreeding done to "plant" color varities has negatively impacted their breeding potential, the pens should also all be of the same breeding and age. In short, the only measurable difference between the pens needs to be what they are being fed during the test.

Having spent the past 3 weeks heavily investigating meat type rabbits,one very popular way to feed them is by growing your own "fodder". If you want to see some spectacular analysis on feed and a very.very cheap way to sustain livestock,spend some time researching wheatgrass and barleygrass fodder. You grow this sruff basically for no more than the cost of the seed,which anyone can buy at a local grain elecvator,or feed store. You first soak the seeds in a 10% bleachwater solution,killing any mold on the seeds themselves.Times vary but many soak this seed mixture in a 5 gallon bucket for 5-6 hours,then drain the water off. You leave them sit for a day,then add water again for about an hour or so,then drain and spread these swollen,germinated seeds across a plastic pan,or other suitable container that water can be added to several times each day,,and alowed to drain off.It takes roughly 3 days of grwoing before you notice the plants getting green. Most fodder is harvested at between he 6th-8th day.From what I've been reading,2 lbs of seeds will eventually end up becoming a mass weighing about 10-12lbs,and since it is all young shoots,and no dirt in the roots,the entire plant is edible. Protein levels are very high,especially for barley and alfalfa sprouts,about in the 30% range.
This has sparked my interest because feed cost with raising meat rabbits is the manin controlable "imput" cost,,same with Peafowl. And since my peas breeding pens are de-void of much if any green grass after about May10th,,I'm wondering if they would enjoy a block of fodder each night?? Granted,as with anything,there is some costs involved but they are not significant for the amount of feed that can be produced daily.You will need a place that humiditity and tempratures can be controlled,mainly less than 60%rh and temps really not lower than 50 or hotter than 70. You must each day,begin a new batch by soaking,the batch you done the day previously is ready to be spread out on a growing tray,,and the rays that are 6-7-8-9 days old can be taken out and fed.After the 6th day on many seedlings used for fodder feed,the protein levels drops.I've read one instance where a person who owns about 100 meat rabbits has fed his flock a 4"x4" square of barleygrass fodder each day,and has never bought commercial feed. I see another "control" group here at the Palace this spring,living off this and plain ole 16% layer crumbles,,and I bet the results will be very good,and I think the peas will fight for some green feed with the seeds still attached.

I tried feeding wheat and oat sprouts last year. I gave it up because my birds wouldn't eat them. So there may be a period of discovery/adjustment required. Cathy- thanks for posting the info on bone meal, I always added it to my horse feed, but thought the Ca/P ratio was the only advantage to it. The gambird food that I buy is blue seal and it comes in crumbles, That and their all flock are the only commercial feeds I usually buy except for ingredients. I hadn't heard of the GMO alfalfa that was bred to be poisonous to insects, I would be worried about the long term effects of feeding it and would want to know just how the mechanism to kill the insects worked. I think that is the worry most people have with the GMO seeds. I have been able to find little, if any, results on the long term use of them.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Trefoil,your first response about The difference in protein alone could account for the difference in # and quality of eggs laid, so its not a viable test. My pen of 8 IB Hens and 3 IB Males has always been on the exact same layer crumbles for the past two years. These birds was all hatched here,raised together,and then penned together for breeding,they have never been seperated since hatchtime 3 years ago. we all know first year peahens only lays maybe 12-15 eggs for the entire season,,this pen averaged per hen,14.5 eggs in 2012,,this year,2013 these same 8 hens laid an average of 11.2 eggs per hen.Protein levels has always been the 16% layer crumbles for this pen,,I was suprised by the lower number of eggs birds one year older produced in this pen.
You can come up with all kinds of diffrent values to be tried within a controlled group,from limiting exact equal amounts of feed per bird,to using soft water,or well water or collected rain water for that matter.I experienced for over a month eggs from my bssp pen quitting or stop developing completely during incubation.Hatchrate was only 5%You can correctly assume too that hatching techniques plays an equal role in hatchability. But within 3 days after I changed their feed ration eggs incubated from that date on I recorded an amazing 85% hatchrate I believe(without looking into numerous spreadsheets) and this year using a diffrent incubator altogether, The same pen of bssp,,being fed the same new feed ration still proved a hatchrate of over 85%,,as did my other pen of Midnight b/s,,also being fed the same new ration this second season.My Midnight b/s pen also had very poor hatchrates in 2012,,slightly better than the bssp prior to the new feed,but the same results,3 to 4 days after the new feed was being fed to them too,hatchrates also went way up over the 80% range,and this summer the bssp hens averaged over 40 eggs laid per hen,and the midnights just under 40 eggs. I attribute this factor to the bssp hens are on the average no less than 5 years old,where all the midnight b/s hens was only 3 years old this past summer.
I'm adjusting my next feed to have less alfalfa meal,and more fish meal protein,instead of soybean meal. Alfalfa meal will still be present because my breeding pens has very little grass in them after the end of May,and alfalfa meal provides a huge amount of vitamin B. Alfalfa meal levels will rise sharply when my late March feed will be mixed again. My birds has not yet had fish meal as a protein source. The trace minerals it does have makes it the best overall choice for increasing protein levels,as well as getting essential trace minerals of value.But it all comes down to economics,and what we can afford,and what we gain from the added expense.$400 per ton for custom ground feed that you already have proof of increased eggs laid per season,fertile hatching eggs,and hatched peachicks are all I need to know to put all my birds on this ration.I'm keeping protein levels around 18.5%-19% for now and will increase starting in mid March to 24-26%,just as I did with my bssp and Midnight b/s pens the past two years. I can't shoot holes in my findings because I proved the results.The only thing I would like to change is adding BOSS to my ration but some pens will pick them out and not touch them,while others choose them first to eat. I'm thinking on maybe "cracking" them along with the corn,making them less noticeable as a large,dark colored seed that stands out so much.I'm after the Onega 3's and Omega 6's in the BOSS,
Since there is no green grass inside of Pea Palaces pens and sometimes nothing in the garden is ready I think my birds will work fodder over pretty easily compared to just ground custom made feed.It's a challenge and everyday chore to grow this stuff but my feedman told me today he can get barleygrass seed,which is the easiest to grow,and the sweetest tasting of all fodder,,plus i'm pretty sure it has the highest protein levels.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Had a very,very interesting conversation yesterday at the grocery store of all places. I've been very,very good friends with a man that sells Show Line feed for livestock for many many years. Several years ago he moved to Bloomington Illinois to be closer to his main office-headquarters,but last night while looking for ingredients for our christmas prime rib roast someone said my name and asked where the h-ll I had been for so long. Well it was my old feed buddy.He has recently moved back,living about 5 miles east of me now. Well we're standing there in the produce section talking this and that when I told him I now had about 125 peafowl,and thought I had found a solution to poor hatchability,quitters and fertility in eggs in general.
This man works exclusively with cattle and hogs,,he knows every trick in the book for getting larger animals in tip top show condition.He is heavily involved in all areas of additives in feed,and then follows up with results at slaughter. When it comes to picking winning show livestock and feeding them correctly,this man has to be one of the tops in his field.
What really threw me for a loop was when he said he would be going to Ohio tomorrow and knows one of their top nutritionalists that does work with poultry.He is going to tell him what I'm now using and see if any additional recommendations are needed. I guess this nutritionalist he knows has a PhD in animal sciences,,so if this person takes an interest in what our issues are,we all maybe can benefit from what he may possibly already know,or if he can address certain areas that needs improvement. I'll post what transpires in a few days. I just think it's funny that two grown guys both with shopping carts(hes a happy bachelor-party animal deluxe type)standing in the produce isle talking peacock fertility while looking at oregano and basil for lasagna and ingredients for prime rib roasts.

 

[zazouse]

 

[frenchblackcopper]

It will be after Jan 2nd before this feed guru comes back from x-mas break. Meanwhile I'm going to need to get ingrediets ordered this week for my next ton of feed.I'm now wanting to affix the protein source to the cracked corn-red millet,so it don't get left behind in the bottom of the feed bowl,much like dust.Anyone here use molasses in their feed? I'm not considering it for any feed value,just as a carrier to stick the protein to larger seeds.

 

[casportpony]

It will be after Jan 2nd before this feed guru comes back from x-mas break. Meanwhile I'm going to need to get ingrediets ordered this week for my next ton of feed.I'm now wanting to affix the protein source to the cracked corn-red millet,so it don't get left behind in the bottom of the feed bowl,much like dust.Anyone here use molasses in their feed? I'm not considering it for any feed value,just as a carrier to stick the protein to larger seeds.

How about something like fish oil?

-Kathy

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Kathy,fish oil may cause the feed to go rancid,just as flaxseed oil does and it's not "sticky". Hempseed oil on the other hand does not go rancid.I've got to figure tonight what I'm going to order for my next ton of feed I will need for next week.I'm cutting back on alfalfa meal for sure.But will increase it again around April 1st,but I wanted to get them used to it now,and will still keep it in their diets for the vitamin B it has.Black Oil Sunflower seeds are high in Omega3 and Omega 6 Fatty acids.Problem is that times past when I added boss to their feed,some pens would pick these seeds out and not touch them. My Opal pen was the absolute worst.But other pens sought these seeds out first.I did a little research last eve on molasses. Seems it doesn't have much nutritional value for poultry,and contains higher levels of potassium,causing birds to drink more. I've read acceptable levels as high as 20% has been used in broiler chickens.
I'm going to check the cost of molasses tomorrow but what I'm leaning to trying is having them crack 4-500 lbs of corn,and 1-200 lbs of black oil sunflower seeds,then adding the molasses to this small batch,then add all the fish meal to this after the molasses has had a chance to stick to the larger pieces of corn and sunflower.When I fed tonight I purposely crouched down to ground level and watched my bssp pen eat the feed.They instinctively pick the largest pieces of cracked corn first,then the red millet seeds. Every evening what's left in the feed bowls from the day before is the fine stuff,alfalfa meal being very noticable along with the soybean meal.My other secret ingredient is undoubtedly there too but if I wait 2 days before adding feed,for the most part all gets eaten up.
Soybean meal is high in much needed selenium,,fish meal does not contain any selenium.My other ingredient contains small amounts of selenium,but not enough for daily intake.Gotta research some more I guess.But if I know for sure what the peas will choose over everything else in the feed pan,that's what the protein needs to be attached to. Fish meal is very fine,almost like dust.