open wound on back, to cull or not to cull? She passed. :o(

[FrenchHen]

My favorite hen Feisty has a huge open wound on her back. I flushed it out today and packed it with neosporin.

It was a mating injury that turned into a pecking frenzy and we can see bones.

I had to wash out bunches of maggots today.

I am not a good nurse.

She is up and kicking around, and she's getting more color on her comb.

I can't devote much time to nurse her, but she's alive and kicking. School starts tomorrow and I have other birds plus a family.

What would you do?

(no judgments please)

ETA: I also bandaged it but she had that off in about 20 minutes.

Update: Feisty died last night.

 

[Lollipop]

Don`t worry about the bandage. Sounds like you got the wound clean. Just check he often for maggots. As soon as the wound is closed, she`s out of danger, except for other chickens whick she should be issolated from until completely healed. She`ll be fine........Pop

 

[Judy]

Pop is right. It's not about time spent nursing her, or a bandage. You really should separate her and keep her where flies can't lay more eggs, though. She will most likely be just fine if you do these things. Just stick her in a laundry basket in your utility room for a few days, with saucers of food and water, or some similar approach. You don't have to be a "special nurse!" Chickens heal very well in most cases. Since she is a favorite, I am sure you can find a few minutes to set up something makeshift for her, and that is probably all she needs.

You should probably check for more maggots once or twice more, and it would be good to trim any feathers that are touching the wound. You could do other stuff, like boost her nutrition or give penicillin, but the truth is, she will probably be just fine with little care more than what you have already done. So, no judgments from me! I probably have a lot more time than you do. Yet, I would probably not do a lot more than what you have already done, either.

The one who might need culling is the roo, not the hen. Or at least a spur trim.

 

[FrenchHen]

The roo situation won't happen again, he's in another coop. We (in the past) have put him in the front pen while we're out of town.
Not anymore.

 

[Judy]

Ah, he must be the stupid rooster. Doncha just love 'em....

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
But you ARE a good nurse! You cleaned her, and washed out maggots.

You just got a late start. The most important thing you can do now, though, is go BACK and look at every inch of her to make sure you got all punctures. They have a way of hiding. So just go back and make sure.

The trick to wound healing is the initial cleaning. I say "clean it like you mean it". I like hydrogen peroxide the first time (not necessary this time) diluted with water, then a follow up of iodine thinned to weak iced tea color with water to flush the wounds thoroughly. Don't rinse it off - pat it dry. The little bit of thinned iodine will continue to kill germs. Then the neosporin, just as you did. Then keep them up for 2 days, away from flies, until the wound gets leathery. OR buy screw-worm wound spray from the feed store and use a little of that on top. (I vastly prefer keeping them inside - it only takes 1 fly to make 300 maggots and flies can smell a wound from a mile away - literally).

I'm in agreement with ddawn on this, in addition to the above. DO keep her apart. Before you put her back, making sure the sore is leathery helps a lot. Flies aren't drawn to leather - they like wounds and moisture.

Just in case someone else needs it some time, I'm going to paste a wound article here. But I think that if you do the above and what others have said, you've doing fine!

---------

WOUND CARE FOR POULTRY – by Nathalie Ross
(updated August 19, 2009)

Unfortunately, poultry and waterfowl fall prey to predators often as they are a vulnerable species. It’s not always possible for us to take our birds to a vet; sometimes we are forced to deal with the injuries immediately. Indeed, wounds should always be dealt with immediately to lessen the chances of infection. For those times when no vet is available, I’ve written this article. I hope that you find it helpful when help is needed.

This is my usual way of handling wound care in both poultry and waterfowl. It is a combination of personal experience, veterinary assisted care, veterinary advice, and research. I’ve used it successfully on some pretty extensive wounds, including wounds that were of large areas and no skin. Poultry and waterfowl are quite resilient and I feel it’s important to give the bird a fighting chance if they survived an attack.
Some wounds are more extensive than others. Sometimes wound care requires neither all of these steps nor all of the materials. I will leave it to the reader to determine how far to take the treatment. However, I do wish to say that the most important part of wound treatment would be the initial examination for wounds, and the cleansing. This makes the rest of the process much easier and more effective.

First, gather materials as needed:
VetWrap or similar self-adhesive wrap.
gauze wrapping type bandages or squares (depending on what you have to bandage)
non-stick pads (depending on what you have to wrap)
antibiotic ointment (neosporin, Swat for horses if you have flies around)
hydrogen peroxide (h202)
iodine
warm water
a needleless syringe - preferably a big one like 30 cc's, or baby’s ear syringe
suture material if you need it (this ideally should be left to a vet)
a small pair of scissors like cuticle scissors are helpful
large scissors
(duct tape in some cases)
a good safe blood clotting agent. I prefer Clotisol as it's not poisonous and clots IMMEDIATELY even in high blood situations. You can even use it inside of beaks. It's water based, lasts ages for a small bottle. Seriously - ages. You can pretty much only get it online, but it's a must-have for a cabinet. Once you use it, you won't go back.
q-tips
paper towels
clothes that can be stained

DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT TO TREAT BY YOUR SELF:
First, an important note: It would be ideal if, as poultry owners faced with an injured bird, that the bird be taken to a qualified veterinarian who can not only dress the wounds, access the damage, but also prescribe the correct antibiotics and follow up as necessary. This, first and foremost, is what I recommend for any wound situation that is more than minor. Please take that to heart.

If instead you decide to treat the wound yourself, here are some basic instructions on how to do so. Note that every wound, every case, is different. Use your common sense and imagination on determining when this protocol must be flexed to fit your situation.

PREPARATION:
First, examine the bird and find all wounds. Literally check every inch of the bird’s body as bird down hides puncture wounds VERY well. Where you find a wound, use your big and little scissors to trim feathers away from the area. Try to only take as many as could touch the wound, no more - they need feather protection and the feathers won't grow back until next molt. Also be careful, if wing feathers are near, not to cut the living flesh part inside feather quills.

If the wounds are under the wing, sometimes you can simply wrap the wing in a t-shirt to keep whatever touches the wing clean. Baby t-shirts would be great for this. Neck part at the top of the wing, fitted with a little duct tape on the cloth (not tight please) and just tie the other end of the t-shirt.

Make sure to look very carefully against the skin for puncture wounds. There might not be look, and puncture wounds are tricky and hard to find. Note the location and severity of all wounds.

CLEANSING:
In this step, the best advice I can give is “clean it like you mean it”! When you clean, do so as if you’ll only get one chance and you want it to last for the entirety of the bird’s convalescence. If you do a really good thorough job, it might just last that long! It should be - barring other factors (like bite germs).
Take your syringe or a baby’s ear syringe and fill with hydrogen peroxide (H202) slightly diluted with water. Use the syringe to vigorously clean the wound area including in the wounds. (Do not use H202 on skinned-type wounds or slick places where skin is off – skip to the iodine step.) You only use h202 the first time as it tends to burn tissues and keep them from healing if you continue. It’s great for bubbling out bits of dirt from inside the wound and “burning” (oxidizing) germs. Do this cleansing about three times per wound. At this step, putting the bird on top of paper towels or regular towels that you can ruin makes things easier – the H202 doesn’t run everywhere or make the bird too wet.

Follow up by rinsing out the H202 with a water/iodine mixture made to be just the color of slightly strong iced tea. You want it warm. Fill your same syringe that you used with the H202 and flush the wounds rather vigorously. I like to think of it as trying to hit someone with the jet of the cleansing solution if the person is standing 4 feet away from me.
Alternately, you can use a solution of Nolvasan cleanser and water – 1 part Nolvasan to 6 parts water.
At this time, if there are any pieces of flesh that need to be removed, remove them. This is where I use a q-tip dipped in a bottle-cap full of Clotisol (so you don't contaminate the original bottle).
Doing this on a table that's ok to stain is best. I've done this on my truck's tail gate as I can clean it afterwards. Place a lot of paper towels under the birds for these two cleansing phases to keep the drain-off from going everywhere.
Use another clean paper towel to dry the wound. You want to leave some iodine solution inside the wound - it doesn't have to be skin-dry. Just dry enough for some ointment to stick.
DRESSING:
Once the wound is well cleaned, then you'll want to dress it. I use Neosporin and q-tips most often for this job. If there are flies in the area at all, I will use Neosporin inside the wounds (ointment) and use Swat wound ointment for horses instead. (It has fly repellent that's safe for poultry in it.) I fill punctures with neosporin. If they're deep, I stick the top of the tube into the wound (and throw away the tube after I'm done with everything). Pack it. You usually want air in a wound, but puncture wounds can sometimes heal on top first and leave a pocket inside. The antibiotic ointment (not creme) is a little insurance against too much bacteria and thus abcesses.
If the wound is one that absolutely must be stitched, then pack it with the antibiotic ointment. If you're using a fly-proof ointment, wipe the wound and then use the fly-proof on top. Otherwise just wipe slightly so there's a little antibiotic ointment on the important top part of the wound. You don't want to stray too far from just the wound, keep the bird dry.
On closing wounds with sutures: puncture wounds shouldn't be sutured. Bad bacteria love a place where there's no oxygen. Suturing closes the wound and encourages festering within. As much air as you can get to a wound, the better, except that the interior of punctures should have some antibacterial action going on.
I've had some serious wounds in my flock before. The only time I've sutured was when a very large flap of skin was torn from the front of a neck (read as 3 inches by 10 inch flap). Another recent case involves a possible rather large hole in a crop which, should it leak food, should be sutured. Otherwise try to leave things open. Poultry can re-grow an amazing amount of skin back if there's muscle underneath. New skin will granulate and grow in to fill in gaps that would surprise you.
On the areas that are just uncovered, I usually use antibiotic creme (versus ointment) because it's water based. Sometimes I'll just put a thin smear of antibiotic ointment, however, if that's what I have. Or fly-preventative ointment if there are flies in the area.

KNOW THE SMELL OF CLEANLY DRESSED WOUNDS:
Because part of your job in the next few days will be trying to detect any signs of infection, it’s important that you know the smell of a freshly cleaned and dressed wounds. Wounds, because they are exposed interiors of the body, do not smell “lovely” by nature. They have a distinct smell that some might find unpleasant. However, they’re much less unpleasant than a wound that has become infected or is going necrotic. Thus it is necessary to become familiar with the “good” smell so that you can recognize the bad. Smell the wound now, remember it, and use that memory every time you examine the healing wounds. Your nose will be as impotant a tool as your eyes in keeping the healing on track.

DRESSING WITH BANDAGES:
If at all possible, try not to cover with bandages. The average bandage keeps air out and moisture in and not in a good way. If you must bandage (a dirt floor area, extreme fly issues, etc) then try to keep the bandage to a minimum and very airy. That's why I'm not a big fan of nonstick bandages. They tend to trap moisture and cause a very warm airless area. But sometimes you have to use them. If so, cover the wound with the bandage. Wrap twice with very gauzey gauze wrap. Then put one layer only of VetWrap over. If you must secure (to keep the bandage from falling, for example) you can use very thin strips of duct tape like you would tape a birthday present. Using as little as possible, but a very strong tape like duct tape, helps let the air in.
Sometimes I've even used just one layer of a very clean paper towel rather than use a non-stick. Afterwards, if you have to remove it, you can soak with warm water and pick the bits out if it sticks. Gauze tends to embed in wound seepage.
Think out of the box when it comes to covering areas that are wounded. With my geese who had multiple puncture and surface wounds on their chest, and a high fly area, I used one white sheet that I formed into a sort of front-bib and tied behind their back. T-shirts are also awesome to cover a bird's body. Buy the appropriate size, slip the neck over their neck, their legs through the arm holes, cut two holes through which you slip their wings. Gather the bottom end (cut so that you don't cover their vent) at the top of their back and duct-tape the cloth to make it stay fitted. T-shirts are very airy, cheap, washable, and absorbent.

SUTURES:
If your bird requires stitches, suture material with thread attached can be found at many feedstores or purchased online ahead of time. The size you want is for dogs and cats. Sutures aren't stitched like a pillow case, but each stitch is its own knot. The semi-circular needles of suture needles are ideal for going into and out of the skin. Note: stitching is not easy - skin is tough, usually the needle is slippery, and it's rather tough to do. Overestimate the amount of suture material you need as you'll make knots and cut off the excess bit sticking up.
It’s best to try to avoid stitching a wound if it’s from an animal bite. The mouths of carnivorous animals contain bacteria that are harmful to birds. If you must stitch, always use a drain at the bottom to allow the wound to drain, and leave a stitch open at the top (preferably with a tube into it) so that you can flush out the wound with a syringe as needed.

MAINTENANCE:
Many wounds, if properly cleaned and dressed and left airy, do not need much maintenance. Oddly, one of the best ways of telling whether or not a wound is doing well is by using your nose. Smell the wound at the time of cleaning. Wounds have a particular almost sweet but not cloyingly sweet smell. Remember the smell. Then smell the wound daily to see if you smell rot. If you do, there's not enough air to the wound and possible infection going on.
Wounds will seep a little - that's natural and the body's way of dealing with wounds. Usually the seepage will be mostly clear and smell of wound. However, if there's any opaqueness to it, or clotted texture, that's infection. Also there will be some natural inflammation as the body tries to bully off the bad bacteria and bring in healing materials to the wound. However excessive inflammation, discoloration (especially black or green), should be noted.
If a wound needs cleaning or examining, take off what bandages you can gently. If they stick to the seepage from the wound, use warm water to soak the bandage parts remaining away from the drainage.
Then examine the wound, determine what needs to be done, and redress from the iodine stage onward.

ANTIBIOTICS:
Many wounds do not require additional antibiotics other than topical (on the skin) antibiotic dressings. However in the case of animal bites that weren't caught immediately, cat bites, and wounds that have been sitting or are particularly deep, it may be a good idea to treat with antibiotics. (For cat wounds, you *must* include penicillin as one of the antibiotics and from day one with any catbite wound – even if your veterinarian prescribes Baytril.) If you make this decision, please be sure to get one that is appropriate for wounds. The packages at the feedstore are not and will only cause more problems if used for a purpose for which they’re not intended.
Penicillin G Procaine (Aqueous Pen-G) is commonly found at many feedstores in their fridge section. It's awesome to keep in your own fridge for a rainy day. It's a very thick antibiotic and requires a thicker gauge needle. I would use no thinner than a 22 gauge, preferably something more thick at a length of .75 to 1 inch. At many feedstores, you can buy 3 cc syringes that are together already with needles. These are nice to have on hand as well as that 30 cc syringe that you'll use to flush wounds.
Instructions on how to give an injection are available separately as well as how to treat with antibiotics. If you do choose to use injectable antibiotics, be prepared to go the entire recommended course. Penicillin G Procaine is a concentrated penicillin (they're not all created equally) and only is required to be given every other day. Based on the type of antibiotic you expect to use, buy that many syringes plus two.

HEALING:
Birds in healing mode need help being stabilized, nourished, and hydrated. We all know how delicate birds can be, but it's surprising how resilient they can be at times. However, wounds will often depress a bird or cause them to go into shock. A stressed or shocked bird may not be able to digest foods they're commonly given. For that reason, I recommend only giving easily dissolved feeds when a bird is in the first stages of recovery. Think crumbles, pellets, etc. You don't want to make a drastic change in their diet ever, much less when they're already stressed. If a bird is reluctant to eat, try wetting the pellets/crumbles. You can also add a boiled egg yolk (one per six cups of food) mashed into the crumbles. I like to also give probiotics (yogurt, Fastrack, Probiocs, acidophilus, or whatever I have available) during this time to combat a secondary intestinal disorder from stress and change of way of eating. Yogurt is simple. You can mix 1 tablespoon per two cups of feed.
The added protein in an egg yolk helps the bird to heal. Adding a capsule of vitamin E to that mash (one per 2 cups of mash) also helps healing. If the birds are stressy, or not able to eat normally, I'll use a vitamin/electrolyte mix in their water for the first few days. I never ever use an oral antibiotic for wound treatment. Period.

CONCLUSION:
It's unfortunately common that poultry are victims of predation and wounds. They are delicate and, with their ultra-fast metabolisms, can die readily if they decide to. Remember that an injured bird can often have internal injuries we never see. If you lose them, just remember you tried your best. However you might be surprised, with proper wound-care, how many of these birds recover to absolutely normal lives. Just be patient as healing takes a while. Usually separate the birds, but if they can be near their peers they take heart from it and will do better.

Good luck with your flock, and I hope this information has been helpful.
Nathalie Ross
(Please do not reproduce without permission of the author. The author is not a veterinarian and does not intend to dispense information that at all should replace the advice of a qualified avian vet.)

USING PENICILLIN G PROCAINE FOR POULTRY – by Nathalie Ross
Sometimes when faced with injured chickens or waterfowls we feel it is necessary to treat with antibiotics to either stop an infection, or prevent one from happening.
People often turn to their local feed store for packaged antibiotics, believing that they are appropriate for nearly all occasions. Unfortunately, these antibiotics in the water actually aren't the ones that work for infected 'wounds'. They are intended for respiratory illnesses and enteritis. The antibiotics that are appropriate for wounds are of the penicillin range, or penicillin related medicines. (Penicillin, Penicillin G Procaine, amoxicillin, etc). With the exception of amoxicillin, these drugs are most often (and most effectively) given by injection. This is particularly true of the penicillin drugs as they are very rough on the beneficial flora of the bird’s digestive tract if given orally.
Penicillin injection medicines are readily available at most feed stores; they are kept and stored in the refrigerator and should be at home as well. One of my preferred drugs for wound use, and commonly found in most stores, is Penicillin G Procaine (300,000 IU).
Penicillin is a mixture of drug particles (solids) in liquid (solution). The particles in the solution are quite large, the drug is quite thick (particularly when stored correctly in the refrigerator) so you need a larger needle to get the correct mixture of particles in solution for an injection.
Most feed stores carry 3 cc syringes pre-equipped with screw-on needles that are 25 gauge (smaller). Of course, to keep the syringe sterile, leave the needle on. The same feedstores often carry loose 18 gauge sterile needles. Buy one for each syringe. Just before you plan to pull the penicillin from the vial for the shot, remove the syringe from its packaging and unscrew the smaller needle, screw on the larger needle with its cap still on. Make sure it is screwed tightly.
Pulling the medicine: penicillin particles settle during storage. Shake the penicillin vial until the solids on the bottom are all mixed into the liquid. Uncap the syringe, and pull the plunger out 1/4cc. Push the needle into the rubber top of the vial and press the plunger to let the air into the vial. Then pull your dosage. Pull out the syringe, turn the needle up, and thump with your finger to dislodge any air bubbles from the syringe to the top of the syringe. Push the plunger gently to push out the air. Re-cap the needle; letting that syringe just come to nearly room temperature. Replace the vial into the refrigerator as soon as the injection is ‘pulled’.

Penicillin is given in the muscle (“IM” aka intramuscularly). On poultry/waterfowl, the best place to give the shot is either in the breast meat or in the thigh. I prefer in the breast meat as there is a great deal of meat, little bone, and few blood vessels.
Clean a spot far from the bone, in the middle of one half of the breast, with a tiny bit of alcohol on a bit of tissue. Uncap the syringe and put the needle into the skin – not terribly far. Less than ¼ inch for sure. Pull its plunger first and look for blood. This is to make sure the needle is not in a blood vessel. If you see blood, withdraw the needle and move the injection sight. Repeat. If you don't see blood, push the plunger in and then remove the syringe from the bird.

Pen G procaine is given daily for no more than four days. The dosage for poultry or waterfowl (under 10 pounds) is listed as less than 1/4 cc if the Penicillin G Procaine is 300,000 I.U. (which is most often is) for animals from 1-10 kg (each kg = 2 pounds, so 1-20 pounds). The dosage is actually listed as 1ml (cc) per 100 pounds of body weight, but giving 1/10th of a cc would be troublesome and it has a high safety margin.

 

[FrenchHen]

Ugh, Ok. I'll try.
Blegh.

Weight loss by maggots.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
Oh honey you did the worst part!

By the way, maggots sometimes hatch in stages - they might not all hatch at once, or be from one fly.

Here are some helpful hints:

Smothering wounds in honey smothers maggots and they come out. If you don't get all the honey off it's ok as it has a light antibacterial action.

Using a red light (like a heat lamp) on the bird helps things not be as gross. Then you just look for movement. (Been there, done that).

On the first cleaning, using diluted hydrogen peroxide (and least 1/2 water if not more) burns maggots. Yes it'll burn healing skin, but maggots are sure-thing bacteria carriers. (Never listen to the Maggots-are-your-friend talk - that's only in labs with certain species of lab-raised maggots performed by trained technicians - in real life, in barn yard, maggots are the enemy. Seek and destroy.)

Spray a perfume on your collar for when you work - something mild.

Keep some peppermint gum in your mouth as peppermint sooths stomachs and gag reflexes.

Think about what you're doing for your girl and declare war on the maggots. If you were she and couldn't take them off, you'd feel horrible as they move on you - right? Relieve her as if you'd want someone to relieve you of them.

Buy screw worm spray for wounds (permethrin), or Swat antiseptic ointment for horses next trip to the feed store. I still like Neosporin deep in punctures (pack them), but I like Swat on top as a smoothed on dab as it's insect repellent.

 

[FrenchHen]

Oh, they were on me all right. Ickyickyickyicky.
I shed my clothes in the laundry room and had a shower.

I did use a half solution of peroxide and I packed her with neo.

I'll flush again tomorrow and pour honey over everything.

 

[threehorses]

Honestly, since you cleaned her so well, I wouldn't flush again unless you see maggots. I would just re-dress with neosporin and let the wound rest. Try to let it rest so that it dries and gets leathery. Then it has its own protection.

The hardest part is over - except worrying. And having nightmares about maggots. /shiver.