Pine and Cedar shavings are dangerous

[estamets]

Anecdotal evidence in favor of Aspen allergy existence:

One of my babies (6 days old today) was having a lot of trouble yesterday: every time she tried to sleep, she would shake her head and wake herself up. This went on all day, and only stopped when I took her out and held her. At those times, she would settle down and get some hardcore, head-flopping sleep. I was worried that it was a sign of serious illness, but she was acting completely normal in every other way, just laying down to sleep a bit more than her sisters (I assume she was tired because she wasn't sleeping well). Her poop continues to appear normal.

Today, I had her out watching TV with me (don't judge), and I realized that she wasn't shaking her head, she was SNEEZING! With itty bitty chickie snot and everything. I immediately removed the aspen shavings from the brooder, and am keeping a close eye on her. She has already fallen asleep without any sneezing, just 15-20 minutes later. There have been a couple of sneezes since then, but there seems to be a marked improvement in her sleep patterns.

I'll update here if she gets worse again, but I'm putting my money on aspen allergies as the culprit. This is 100% anecdotal, and my other 3 girls seem to be doing just dandy with the aspen shavings.

 

[Suzierd]

Hi! Decided to stop lurking and actually join the forum   

We've done some research on pine and cedar in another forum (links: article 1, article 2), so thought I'd share with you all. Obviously it was written for hamsters, not chickens, but the general info applies to all animals, even humans. 

Great info! Thanks for sharing.

 

[MamaKitty913]

Number one child chocker hot dogs
Followed by Cheerios
That kind of thinking can go on ad infinitum.  Cars kill people...you can get by driving for all your life but someone else got into a car wreck, so now we mustn't drive cars.  Grapes are toxic to dogs....no matter that canines have eaten grapes in the wild and in backyards for thousands of years, a dog or two died and now they are considered toxic to dogs.  Planes fall out of the sky..it's been proven!  When they do, people die...so we must now avoid flying in planes.  

Children can choke just as easily on hot dogs and many have done so....more even than on grapes.  We mustn't ever feed a child a hotdog now.  Chicks have died from being on shavings of any kind, mustn't use them because a few have died...no matter that many millions have been raised on them with success.  Must pay attention to the big "WHAT IF" because there have been instances of it actually happening! 

Women have died in childbirth, making the act of giving birth a fatal event....no one should have any more children because women have died doing it. 

Did you know that many heart attacks in the elderly happen while they are on the commode?  Let's stop older people from pooping because it has been known to trigger a dangerous dysrhythmia in the heart....I simply do not care that people have been pooping since they were created, there have been those who have died from it, so I really don't want to take that risk.  Anyone figure out how to get the insurance to pay for a colostomy for grandpa when it isn't needed?  Heck...can't do that even, cause people have DIED during surgeries.  Grandpa could die if I have them do surgery to place a colostomy so he won't have to strain to get poop out of his rectum and have a heart attack.  Oh, what to do????

It's called acceptable risk and every adult has to sort out what is an acceptable risk about all the myriad things they do each day and decide if they are going to make themselves crazy over weighing all the risks so carefully that they never DO anything, really, because doing anything at all leads to risk taking behavior. 

 

[WalleyWaller]

Well Said!

 

[tbiM20]

I understand your view, but I'll have to disagree with the points made.

Hot dogs and Cheerios are not inherently dangerous... choking is an accident, and honestly hot dogs and Cheerios probably only top that list because kids eat them more than anything else. It's not the hot dog's fault, it's probably the kid's for not chewing first.

Grapes and raisins don't always cause death, but they can. It's a recent development and we don't know what causes it... maybe it's certain pesticides, we just don't know. There's that "what if" factor you mentioned.

The commode and heart attacks are correlation, not causation. So yes, it would be completely irrational to prevent people from using the commode for the sake of preventing heart attacks!

Planes and cars crash are, again, from accidents and/or human error. Again, the vehicles are not inherently responsible for the accident, it's the human's for over-correcting//hitting a pothole//not maintaining their vehicle//not looking before switching lanes (it might also be a deer's fault because, you know, deer are jerks like that for jumping in front of cars).


In contrast, we know from the sources I listed that the oils and acids present in these woods are directly responsible for the damage associated with them. Hence why OSHA requires stricter worker safety standards when handling this type of wood, and the EPA categorizes them as more highly hazardous than other types. Cedar is a known human carcinogen and has been proven so by various studies - it's not irrational to be cautious about it. There is documentation of lung scarring, asthma, lowered immune systems, and cancer from humans working with pine and cedar over the past hundred years. There is not just correlation, there is also causation.

You're right, just because an animal dies while using pine bedding does not mean that pine bedding killed the animal. But a more appropriate analogy would be to cigarettes - even if you're not on a ventilator now, we know it's still causing damage in a myriad of ways. Even if you don't die from lung cancer, you might die from pneumonia made worse by your lowered lung capacity and compromised immune system.

So... is it still an acceptable risk? Or is it an easily-avoided hazard?


It's each person's choice what they want to use, and I'm not trying to preach that it's a horrible, horrible thing and people are horrible people for using it. But we need to be clear and not dismiss the real risks associated with it. There's plenty of other substances people use on a regular basis with which they're cautious - lime, fertilizer, drain cleaner, power tools, building materials, heck even straw and hay. We acknowledge the safety concerns and we address them. This is no different.

 

[HR CLUCKnSTUFF]

I use pine shavings for my brooder, and I swear one of the chicks ate the stuff, and got blocked up, and died I will use paper towel for now on. I think once they understand what is food, and what is bedding, they might not eat it though and it will be ok. My other 12 chicks are doing great and they are still in the pine shavings. Oh well...... We live we learn.

 

[TERRY4]

I use pine shavings for my brooder, and I swear one of the chicks ate the stuff, and got blocked up, and died I will use paper towel for now on. I think once they understand what is food, and what is bedding, they might not eat it though and it will be ok. My other 12 chicks are doing great and they are still in the pine shavings. Oh well...... We live we learn.

So sorry you lost one. I have always wondered if they'd eat shavings but was lucky and none of mine did. I use shaving I get from up the road at a small business. He never uses toxic type woods so I use it for my chickens and horse. Thankfully haven't had a problem.

 

[pinerocks]

Could you please post your research! Otherwise your statement is just heresay. I sell Jack pine shavings in bulk and I have never heard of it being poisonous. I will post a link so you can see how it's done.
www.mdpi.com/journal/agriculture

 

[tbiM20]

Could you please post your research! Otherwise your statement is just heresay. I sell Jack pine shavings in bulk and I have never heard of it being poisonous. I will post a link so you can see how it's done.
www.mdpi.com/journal/agriculture

Gladly, and I absolutely agree! We need information, not conjecture. I posted my research on the previous page [*CLICK*] with a variety of resources, both governmental and private.


By the way, I seem to be having trouble with your link, it is a main page. Were you intending to link to a specific article?

 

[pinerocks]

Not sure why my link doesn't work. I'll try a different link. to add to the disscussion I would like to point out that we are selling seasoned shavings, therefore the amount of sylvic acid aka abietic acid is greatly reduced.http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._OF_THE_RESINS_IN_JACK_PINE_(PINUS_BANKSIANA)