Please help! Anemic chick dying

[Sqhomestead]

I have a 3 month old blue copper marans chick on deaths door. She was treated last week for cocci after a positive fecal sample at the vet. It did a horrific number on her. Her symptoms now are: twisted neck, can't stand, eyes almost always closed, pigmentation loss in many feathers. The treatment I have been giving since she got this way is vitamin e and selenium, vitamin b complex injections starting today, and Poultry Cell started today. She's had 2 clean fecal checks since stopping the treatments, this is not cocci. The Poultry Cell says can give 1 to 3 cc's daily, but for a severe case like this how much can I give her without making her sick from it? Yes, I've tried scrambled eggs , she will not touch them. I even mixed them in a little plain yogurt. The only thing I can get her to eat is her chick starter crumble. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[rebrascora]

Unfortunately it is likely that your chick has Marek's Disease. It is a very common disease of young poultry and can cause a huge range of symptoms including secondary infections like coccidiosis because it suppresses the immune system, as well as the more obvious neurological symptoms like wry neck that you are seeing. A bird of this age should have built up resistance to coccidia unless it has been moved to a new home where the local protozoa are different to the strain it has previously been exposed to, so a 3 month old bird suffering from a coccidia overgrowth should not be taken at face value and the treatment for it is unlikely to be to blame for your birds other symptoms.
Sadly there is no cure or recognised treatment for Marek's disease and many young birds that contract it die. I have been dealing with it for the past 4 years and have had some birds make pretty miraculous recoveries from outbreaks but they will always have the disease and be prone to further outbreaks. The disease has dormant phases like the human cold sore virus (both are Herpes viruses) and it isn't possible to tell by looking at them which birds have the disease and which don't, until they have an outbreak, which are usually triggered by stress. An outbreak can be as subtle as being unable to keep one eyelid fully open for a few days or as debilitating as lying on their side with one leg forward and the other back unable to stand or even sit upright. It is a very complicated disease and most people don't even realise that their flock is infected with it because the symptoms are so diverse and mimic or induce other illnesses or the birds suddenly recover from lameness after a few days and they assume it was just a sprain from jumping down off a high roost. Some birds die suddenly from it without showing any obvious symptoms too. There are a whole myriad of possible combinations of symptoms.

The best that you can do is support the immune and neurological systems with vitamin supplementation and keep the digestive tract healthy with probiotics or fermented feed. If the bird stops eating then I take that as the point to euthanize as there is no real hope of recovery once their digestive system shuts down and tube feeding them stresses them which makes their neurological symptoms worse. I had one that was nest bound for nearly 3 months with it but eventually made sufficient of a recovery to return to free ranging with the flock and laying eggs.... she retained a residual lameness but was remarkably mobile. You do need to be aware that symptomatic birds are actively shedding the virus during an outbreak and adding to the reservoir of infected material on your property so culling birds with it can be the most sensible option but there is no easy test to diagnose it and usually it is done via necropsy after death..... I would urge you to look at your local options for this so that you know what you are dealing with if she does die and how to manage it. State Agricultural Diagnostics Labs are the most knowledgeable and cost effective means of getting a necropsy done. Birds can be taken in or refrigerated and shipped overnight on ice.

It may of course not be Marek's, but it is an extremely common and widespread disease and almost certainly in the top 3 killers of juvenile chickens, so the odds are stacked towards it.

 

[Sqhomestead]

Unfortunately it is likely that your chick has Marek's Disease. It is a very common disease of young poultry and can cause a huge range of symptoms including secondary infections like coccidiosis because it suppresses the immune system, as well as the more obvious neurological symptoms like wry neck that you are seeing. A bird of this age should have built up resistance to coccidia unless it has been moved to a new home where the local protozoa are different to the strain it has previously been exposed to, so a 3 month old bird suffering from a coccidia overgrowth should not be taken at face value and the treatment for it is unlikely to be to blame for your birds other symptoms.
Sadly there is no cure or recognised treatment for Marek's disease and many young birds that contract it die. I have been dealing with it for the past 4 years and have had some birds make pretty miraculous recoveries from outbreaks but they will always have the disease and be prone to further outbreaks. The disease has dormant phases like the human cold sore virus (both are Herpes viruses) and it isn't possible to tell by looking at them which birds have the disease and which don't, until they have an outbreak, which are usually triggered by stress. An outbreak can be as subtle as being unable to keep one eyelid fully open for a few days or as debilitating as lying on their side with one leg forward and the other back unable to stand or even sit upright. It is a very complicated disease and most people don't even realise that their flock is infected with it because the symptoms are so diverse and mimic or induce other illnesses or the birds suddenly recover from lameness after a few days and they assume it was just a sprain from jumping down off a high roost. Some birds die suddenly from it without showing any obvious symptoms too. There are a whole myriad of possible combinations of symptoms.

The best that you can do is support the immune and neurological systems with vitamin supplementation and keep the digestive tract healthy with probiotics or fermented feed. If the bird stops eating then I take that as the point to euthanize as there is no real hope of recovery once their digestive system shuts down and tube feeding them stresses them which makes their neurological symptoms worse. I had one that was nest bound for nearly 3 months with it but eventually made sufficient of a recovery to return to free ranging with the flock and laying eggs.... she retained a residual lameness but was remarkably mobile. You do need to be aware that symptomatic birds are actively shedding the virus during an outbreak and adding to the reservoir of infected material on your property so culling birds with it can be the most sensible option but there is no easy test to diagnose it and usually it is done via necropsy after death..... I would urge you to look at your local options for this so that you know what you are dealing with if she does die and how to manage it. State Agricultural Diagnostics Labs are the most knowledgeable and cost effective means of getting a necropsy done. Birds can be taken in or refrigerated and shipped overnight on ice.

It may of course not be Marek's, but it is an extremely common and widespread disease and almost certainly in the top 3 killers of juvenile chickens, so the odds are stacked towards it.

Thank you very much @rebrascora
That was very informative and detailed and easy to read and understand. I've been thinking about Marecks the whole time she's been sick. The vet made me feel a little better when I asked him about it and he told me he didn't think that was it, he said it's actually very uncommon in our area. But of course he is not an avian vet, and hasn't really done anything more than look at her stool sample . One other bird that has never been in the same coop or run with her had a weird experience. She came down with limberneck. I started her on selenium and vitamin e and literally 24 hours later she was perfectly fine . That made me think the cocci meds were making them sick? If she passes, I'm taking her to the UK ag dept for a necropsy. Either way, I'm getting someone from the state vet's office to come take samples from my flocks to test. If it's avian flu or END they will most likely take my birds. This is just devastating.

 

[Sqhomestead]

If it is indeed Mareks, how long before the other birds that lived with her show symptoms?

 

[rebrascora]

It could be anywhere from a few days to 1+ years. The nature of the disease is such that the birds can tick along quite happily until something will trigger an outbreak and what triggers one may not trigger another. Common triggers are integration of youngsters into an adult flock, harassment by adolescent cockerels, surge of hormones at point of lay, moult, sometimes a predator attack, a bad storm, excessive heat, confinement due to bad weather in winter etc. Basically anything!

Marek's is world wide but very few people get necropsies done to establish a cause of death and since testing on live birds is still new and relatively expensive and most vets only see a bird once or twice and it either gets better or dies, I don't think they are best placed to assess it's occurrence, so I would challenge your vet's statement. I also think due to the nature of the disease being so varied and outbreaks sporadic, there are probably some quite experienced poultry people who have it in their flock and don't even know it, particularly with the milder strains. The virulent strains tend to kill a high proportion of juvenile birds and that usually triggers the owner to get a necropsy. Here in the UK the strains are milder and only a small proportion die and people often think the bird died of coccidiosis or wry neck or vitamin deficiency and don't investigate further, so it may be a similar situation in your area.

 

[Sqhomestead]

It could be anywhere from a few days to 1+ years. The nature of the disease is such that the birds can tick along quite happily until something will trigger an outbreak and what triggers one may not trigger another. Common triggers are integration of youngsters into an adult flock, harassment by adolescent cockerels, surge of hormones at point of lay, moult, sometimes a predator attack, a bad storm, excessive heat, confinement due to bad weather in winter etc. Basically anything!

Marek's is world wide but very few people get necropsies done to establish a cause of death and since testing on live birds is still new and relatively expensive and most vets only see a bird once or twice and it either gets better or dies, I don't think they are best placed to assess it's occurrence, so I would challenge your vet's statement. I also think due to the nature of the disease being so varied and outbreaks sporadic, there are probably some quite experienced poultry people who have it in their flock and don't even know it, particularly with the milder strains. The virulent strains tend to kill a high proportion of juvenile birds and that usually triggers the owner to get a necropsy. Here in the UK the strains are milder and only a small proportion die and people often think the bird died of coccidiosis or wry neck or vitamin deficiency and don't investigate further, so it may be a similar situation in your area.

Thank again for this information .. I should add that she and the other pullet that had limberneck have also had very green poop. I know that's common with Mareks? My head is just spinning and heart is breaking. My poor chickens.

 

[rebrascora]

Yes green poop is pretty common with Marek's but it is usually just an indication that the digestive system is shutting down and can be symptomatic of other ailments too.
I can only sympathise as I know and share the heart break of losing young birds. I currently have a 3 year old that looks like she is going to die of a respiratory problem which I strongly suspect is Mark's related. Secondary respiratory infections like coccidiosis can be another side effect of a suppressed immune system but tumours in the lungs are quite common with Marek's too. Not sure if I will have time to open her up to have a look when she dies and it is so hot here at the moment that I can't delay doing it for long. I am trying to psych myself up to end it for her but still hoping she might turn things around. It is nearly a year since I lost one to it and I had one fully recover from an outbreak about 6 months ago and she is still going strong, so it could be a lot worse.

 

[Sqhomestead]

@rebrascora you have been so helpful to me. Thank you so much. I am very sorry about your sick girl. And I am so sorry you and to ur chickens have to deal with this awful disease. I'm feeling like that inevitably is what I'll discover about my babies. I was so excited to have 1 or 2 of my older.girls hatch some chicks next spring. I feel like I didn't protect them like I shoukd have. Again, thankyou very much for the support.

Susie

Ps.
I don't trust the vet that saw mine either. He seemed.pretty clueless.
QUOTE="rebrascora, post: 20207263, member: 259584"]Yes green poop is pretty common with Marek's but it is usually just an indication that the digestive system is shutting down and can be symptomatic of other ailments too.
I can only sympathise as I know and share the heart break of losing young birds. I currently have a 3 year old that looks like she is going to die of a respiratory problem which I strongly suspect is Mark's related. Secondary respiratory infections like coccidiosis can be another side effect of a suppressed immune system but tumours in the lungs are quite common with Marek's too. Not sure if I will have time to open her up to have a look when she dies and it is so hot here at the moment that I can't delay doing it for long. I am trying to psych myself up to end it for her but still hoping she might turn things around. It is nearly a year since I lost one to it and I had one fully recover from an outbreak about 6 months ago and she is still going strong, so it could be a lot worse.[/QUOTE]

 

[rebrascora]

Try not to be too despondent. Chicks and chickens are vulnerable to so many ailments, diseases and predators and you cannot keep them safe from all of them. Dealing with death is an inevitable part of chicken keeping, sooner or later. Living with Marek's is challenging but learning as much as you can about the disease and figuring out the vagaries of the strain you have and how best to deal with it and accepting that there will be some loss despite your best efforts is all part of that. I love watching broody hens rear chicks and I am finding that many of those chicks survive even when raised within my Marek's infected flock.
Ensuring that cockerels are removed before their hormones kick in and they start running riot..... mine are processed for food because rehoming is not responsible since they have been exposed to Marek's virus and I take the view that if I am prepared to eat chicken, then I should be prepared to kill and process the meat from my surplus cockerels. It is surprising how chicken keeping can toughen you up and even though I cry when I have to kill one, either to humanely euthanize or butcher for meat, I actually feel proud of myself that I am able to do it
Ensuring that the flock have plenty of space is also important for reducing stress levels and keeping Marek's outbreaks minimized.
Broody reared chicks usually have stronger immune systems and less or no integration stress because they are brought up within the flock and protected by the broody and breeding from stock that have been exposed to Marek's but not succumbed may increase the chances of the chicks being resistant, so these all help towards managing the disease within your flock without compromising greatly on your chick rearing goals. Yes, every loss is heart breaking but there will always be losses in raising chicks and the ones that do survive with supportive care more than make up for the losses in my experience. My current broody that has 4 week old chicks was the one that survived an attack 6 months ago..... she is loving being a mother hen. I have 2 more broodies sharing 6 eggs that are due to hatch in 8 days. Will there be some losses?.... probably.... there were some that got crushed or failed to hatch that had nothing to do with Marek's and were sad. Will there be some cockerels that I need to butcher?.... definitely. Am I worrying about that now as I watch those chicks grow or those eggs develop..... trying not to. Am I enjoying watching their antics and the broody caring for them.... definitely. Death is an integral part of life..... chicken keeping brings that home to you but it doesn't stop most of us from enjoying it. If this is Marek's, be aware and responsible but try not to let it override the enjoyment that you get from keeping chickens.

 

[Sqhomestead]

@rebrascora thank you... that really hit home and gives me hope. I am taking her in the morning , should she survive the night , to the university that will euthanize and do the necropsy. I kept praying for a miracle a d shoveling vitamins and minerals and every possible thing else down her. I was just praying I would go in the room to check on her and see her up and about and looking at me l ike "why am I inside here" lol but she's too far gone. All I am doing at this point is keeping her barely hanging on when she probably would have already passed. Thank you so much for your time today and all your wisdom. I Will update here as soon as I know the results of her necropsy.