Processing Day Support Group ~ HELP us through the Emotions PLEASE!

[MargaretYakoda]

I've never killed a rooster with any liver damage...always seems to be the hens. I've fed roosters 5-6 yrs on layer and never saw any liver disease or any other disease, for that matter. Roosters on free range consume up to 12% calcium in the greens they consume and that doesn't affect them at all, nor does it affect chicks. I've never seen any evidence at all that layer feed affects the health of roosters, no matter the age.

Fatty liver doesn't have grey spots nor hardness to it, but are more yellowed and friable, fall to pieces in your hands when you try to pull them out.


Maybe more likely to be Spotty Liver Disease?

OK so Spotty Liver Disease is sounding more like what it was. The liver was hard, and it did have spots.
Is the cause of that only from campylobacter? Are there other causes? And if it was campylobacter, would the carcass still be communicable? Campylobacter is a nasty illness...

 

[Beekissed]

That's the same information I've seen repeated over and over on sites and articles but they really have no studies or proof of this happening as there are no studies done on dual purpose breed chickens that free range and eat layer ration. Any studies done on calcium and kidneys were done on broiler birds in a controlled setting, which has no relation whatsoever to how much exercise a typical backyard flock gets compared to a broiler bird in confinement, not to mention that the genetics are completely different, with the broiler birds more predisposed to developing organ failure of all kinds.

Calcium is utilized in a chicken pretty much like it is in a human, the more exercise you get where the muscle exerts pull against the bones, the more calcium is removed from the blood stream and stored in the bones. In inactive humans...and chickens...the calcium is not needed in the bones as much due to low activity and no stress from muscles pulling against them, so the calcium from the diet stays in the bloodstream more and is then excreted by the kidneys...which is one reason young broiler birds are more prone to broken legs...it's not just due to their heavy and fast weight gain, but also due to inactivity and the resulting weak bone matrix.

In young, growing and active chicks, the calcium levels they require are much like a young child, puppy or kitten to form healthy bones and the same applies to roosters, which are the most active bird in the flock, with the largest bone mass. Whereas hens can utilize excess calcium in forming shells, they are typically less active than a rooster and have less large and dense bones, so it all evens out for them...the calcium is utilized in other ways.

As for practical experience with the calcium levels in the diet, we've been giving all ages and sexes layer ration for the past 39 yrs without a single bird becoming ill from any disease process in our flocks, nor any butchered bird showing any signs of renal disease in the organs. Typically we'll see what everyone else sees, friable, fatty livers in old layer hens, particularly those that have been exceptional layers...but all of that is common no matter what you feed.

 

[Beekissed]

OK so Spotty Liver Disease is sounding more like what it was. The liver was hard, and it did have spots.
Is the cause of that only from campylobacter? Are there other causes? And if it was campylobacter, would the carcass still be communicable? Campylobacter is a nasty illness...

There are other causes as well. I think I read that exposure to MG and Mareks can cause liver lesions similar to spotty liver, even in birds that are merely carriers.

 

[ronott1]

That's the same information I've seen repeated over and over on sites and articles but they really have no studies or proof of this happening as there are no studies done on dual purpose breed chickens that free range and eat layer ration. Any studies done on calcium and kidneys were done on broiler birds in a controlled setting, which has no relation whatsoever to how much exercise a typical backyard flock gets compared to a broiler bird in confinement, not to mention that the genetics are completely different, with the broiler birds more predisposed to developing organ failure of all kinds.

Calcium is utilized in a chicken pretty much like it is in a human, the more exercise you get where the muscle exerts pull against the bones, the more calcium is removed from the blood stream and stored in the bones. In inactive humans...and chickens...the calcium is not needed in the bones as much due to low activity and no stress from muscles pulling against them, so the calcium from the diet stays in the bloodstream more and is then excreted by the kidneys...which is one reason young broiler birds are more prone to broken legs...it's not just due to their heavy and fast weight gain, but also due to inactivity and the resulting weak bone matrix.

In young, growing and active chicks, the calcium levels they require are much like a young child, puppy or kitten to form healthy bones and the same applies to roosters, which are the most active bird in the flock, with the largest bone mass. Whereas hens can utilize excess calcium in forming shells, they are typically less active than a rooster and have less large and dense bones, so it all evens out for them...the calcium is utilized in other ways.

As for practical experience with the calcium levels in the diet, we've been giving all ages and sexes layer ration for the past 39 yrs without a single bird becoming ill from any disease process in our flocks, nor any butchered bird showing any signs of renal disease in the organs. Typically we'll see what everyone else sees, friable, fatty livers in old layer hens, particularly those that have been exceptional layers...but all of that is common no matter what you feed.

Bee, it does not surprise me that calcium poisoning is not seen by you. It takes a long time to hurt both chickens and people. I do not want to co op this thread which is for helping people process chickens. I will be starting a thread primarily focused on hpercalcemia in humans, which will kill a person in 25 years. Chickens takes more than three but it does hurt and will kill them.

What I will say here is that calcium needs to be in a very tight balance. Too much is bad and too little is bad. I have watched my Wife suffer with too much calcium in her blood for 15 to 20 years because the medical profession does not recognize how important it is to keep calcium in balance.

Can you imagine a Doctor saying to a patient, who has an imaging scan showing a tumor, kidney stones and osteoporosis that he would not recommend having surgery to remove the tumor?

Question for you? Do you know what your blood calcium level is? Everyone should know this number. If it has been mostly in the 10 range for several years, then something is very wrong.

 

[Beekissed]

I'm sure you think the theory has valid points because you are dealing with hypercalcemia on a personal level, but I've not seen any of that play out in practice in any of my flocks for almost 40 yrs and I keep many birds upwards to 7 yrs of age...and they enjoy stellar good health and produce many years all the while. I can't imagine the long term effects of varying calcium levels for chickens is even an issue, as living past the age of 7 just isn't even necessary unless they are still producing 5-7 eggs a week. Nor is it an issue with me, as I don't intend to live one day past my appointed time to die, nor do I expect I'll die earlier than that appointment either. Fear of dying is just not in my wheelhouse, so constantly monitoring blood levels of anything is not ever going to be part of my life.

I'm thinking, if their calcium needs were so delicate of a balance that there wouldn't be a chicken alive on this Earth. Such a theory seems to only cause fear and unnecessary doubt in the minds of newbie chicken owners, while keeping them in a false prison of formulated feeds for different ages and sexes of birds, fearful of coloring outside the lines or they will kill their chickens.

I'm sorry...but to me, that dog won't hunt.

 

[redrstr29]

Help!!! I Bought 4 Hens at an Auction 6 weeks ago.... BIG MISTAKE... I think they are SPENT.... I've processed many times in the past now I took a break for 3 years and Im at it again, After buying this batch I bought 5 amazing red cross pullets that have a bright egg laying future, I feel like Im feeding these older ones for no reason, Im loosing money and time, and they are mean to the 21 week old pullets, but i kind of got attached to 2 of them, one I can noticed deepened in red color near waddles and i feel an egg in her if I palpate her abdomen, so maybe ill keep her , but def 2 out of the 4 I got at auction need to go, I feel bad!!! UGH I just need to do It, cause every day Im more frustrated with them!!

Thanks
Aldo

 

[Sally Sunshine]

Help!!! I Bought 4 Hens at an Auction 6 weeks ago.... BIG MISTAKE... I think they are SPENT.... I've processed many times in the past now I took a break for 3 years and Im at it again, After buying this batch I bought 5 amazing red cross pullets that have a bright egg laying future, I feel like Im feeding these older ones for no reason, Im loosing money and time, and they are mean to the 21 week old pullets, but i kind of got attached to 2 of them, one I can noticed deepened in red color near waddles and i feel an egg in her if I palpate her abdomen, so maybe ill keep her , but def 2 out of the 4 I got at auction need to go, I feel bad!!! UGH I just need to do It, cause every day Im more frustrated with them!!

Thanks
Aldo

Awww you have come to the right place! Sorry you have spent hens like that. What help are you looking for?

Posted this before and no one wants to talk about it so am trying on several threads. Is this immoral? Why will nobody talk about alcohol and bird butchering?? Has anyone ever lace feed with alcohol to help your girls "relax" before preparing them for the table? I gave 12 5 month old austrolorps a pint of 80 proof rum in 2 cups of feed and they thought they were having a social. Did not slow them down a bit. Pound for pound that is like this 205 lbs. Soo do farmer guzzling 2 1/2 pints. Never have but I know That would but me on my behonkus. Seems logical. Like novicane at the dentist. Easier on all involved.

Nope never heard of that, if you want them relaxed hold them on their backs and pet them and do the deed in this state its cheaper. Sorry I cant help much

 

[Sally Sunshine]

I have been researching more on broilers since I have so many growing out...

A few points I found, that I may have missed on the thread but wanted to ask about...


We had discussed withholding feed before slaughter and I ran into this....

Influence of chlorine added to drinking water during the preslaughter feed withdrawal on microbiology and morphology of the broiler gastrointestinal tract ~ http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/contents/12-11-10PoultryScience2778.pdf
Quote:



AND I RAN into this I wanted to share...
see mainly feed and water section...

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/4hfiles/agriculture/MarketBroilerCare_Management.pdf

Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote:
Some exhibitors add 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar per 1 gallon of water (which is free of any antibiotics or other medications) once a week. They contend that the vinegar mildly acidifies the gut of the bird, lowering the pH, and thereby stabilizes the gut flora, and helps improve absorption of Ca, P, and K. Some claim it also improves feather quality and produces a tastier, lean meat.

Quote:
A similar proven supplemental feeding program for the last 10 days to 2 weeks before the show entails “pulling” or raising the dry feed feeders at about 5 or 6 in the late afternoon each day. At this time, mix 12 to 16 ounces of corn oil with 10 to 15 pounds of good cracked yellow corn (corn chops) in a 5-gallon bucket. Stir until all the corn oil is absorbed, then add 1/2 gallon of whole milk, stir again, and let soak for a couple hours. At 7 or 8 in the evening, stir once more and pour into long, raised troughs, topdress with about 1/2 pound of hulled sunflower seed (“hearts”), sprinkle a handful of grit on top of each troughful, then place in the pen.

Another supplemental feeding option is to prepare a “cooked corn” mixture. One formula uses 1 1/4 pounds corn gluten meal, 3 3/4 pounds yellow corn meal, and 5 pounds of regular broiler feed. These ingredients are combined in a large boiler with 3/4 to 1 gallon of whole milk. The mixture is brought to a boil and 3 sticks (12 ounces) of melted margarine are added. The mixture is cooked and stirred for 3 to 5 minutes, then cooled, and fed to the broilers - - separate from the regular dry feed.

 

[redrstr29]

I just need convincing, I just hate processing chickens anyway, rabbits not a problem, I just feel bad IDK if I should hold out (for maybe nothing) but I already know I need to do It im wasting time and money, Its been almost 2 months with these older hens and maybe 6 eggs total, 1 I think will start I feel them in her abdomen ( which happened by mistake)

But She still hasn't laid it and its been a week or so its traveled up near the vent... I think they're laughing at me, after I feed them left over manicotte and macaroni, lol

And they are territorial

Thanks Aldo

 

[fisherlady]

I just need convincing, I just hate processing chickens anyway, rabbits not a problem, I just feel bad IDK if I should hold out (for maybe nothing) but I already know I need to do It im wasting time and money, Its been almost 2 months with these older hens and maybe 6 eggs total, 1 I think will start I feel them in her abdomen ( which happened by mistake) But She still hasn't laid it and its been a  week or so its traveled up near the vent... I think they're laughing at me, after I feed them left over manicotte and macaroni, lol   And they are territorial

Thanks Aldo 

It sounds like they need processed, and sooner would be good. Many older hens get reproductive tract issues, they can be tumors or internal laying. There are not many signs of these problems till the very end, if even then.