Protein Content

[MeepBeep]

The original question, I thought was a simple one, "Is 16% or 22% better for layers?"

Is there no short answer to this? I'm not sure I have spent much time thinking about this. My chickens free range and eat so many bugs and greens that I really didn't think I had to worry about anything.

There no short black an white answer, IMO 22% is likely excess for layers, but that doesn't equate to it being worse or 16% being better as there is going to be instances that lean both ways favoring more or less protein...

If you are all that concerned they are not getting enough protein, go with the middle ground as many do and feed an 18% feed...

 

[Beekissed]

Handy, no but 5 minutes on Google yielded these, and by my count this exceeds two... Note there might be repeats, I only spent 5 minutes gathering this list...

Here is a link to a 2008 study, if you read the introduction you will find links to 6 other studies...
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/87/7/1353.full

Leg abnormality associated with dietary excessive calcium carbonate in broiler chicks.~not even close to being applicable to backyard flocks, particularly since the subjects are of questionable genetics in the first place.

Here is another from 1987, again links to multiple other studies some repeats but some unique...
http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/handle/1234/19522

The capacity of the birds of balancing determined
nutrients in the body (Dukes, 1996), suggests that
other factors, such as genetics and the individual
capacity may influence Ca metabolization. Therefore,
several factors need to be taken into account, such as
health status, opening a wide range of opportunities
for future studies, and which may have influenced the
contradictory results obtained in the present study

The title of the study says it all....just how many of us are actually feeding broiler chicks under arid conditions in our laboratories in Nigeria? THE INFLUENCE OF VARYING CALCIUM-PHOSPHORUS RATIOS
ON FINISHING AND CARCASS CHARACTERISTICS OF BROILER
FINISHER CHICKENS UNDER A SEMI ARID ENVIRONMENT But....I'll go along and post the summary of that report and see if it has any indication that backyard dual purpose or layer breed chicks and roosters shouldn't be eating high Ca diets....

Nope...didn't see any of that there.....

And another...
http://www.worldpoultry.net/Breeder...-damage-is-emerging-in-laying-hens-WP008719W/

I'm not sure where one would even find a layer ration that has that level of calcium and phosphorus imbalance, but I guess it could happen.

And another with several references...
http://www.roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=birdBrain.articlesRead&article_id=10'

This is the only one with any application to the subject of actual real chickens, but, sadly, the studies were all conducted in the 60s and 70s and once again, they were in controlled settings wherein the chickens didn't actually get any real levels of exercise to utilize calcium in the diet.

And I'm sure if I cared to invest more than 5 minutes I could continue to dig up other studies and reports as I'm sure there are some not indexed in the first 2 pages of a Google search...

As for you discrediting them for this or that reason, like I said above some will simply ignore or discredit the scientific studies in favor of their anecdotal observations, just as you are doing..

To each their own...

This is fun! We should do this again sometime!

You know, I found all those same studies, but since only a few even vaguely applied to the actual backyard flock, I didn't bother to give them any credence whatsoever.

Yes, each to his own....the proof is in the puddin', so to speak.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The original question, I thought was a simple one, "Is 16% or 22% better for layers?"

Is there no short answer to this? I'm not sure I have spent much time thinking about this. My chickens free range and eat so many bugs and greens that I really didn't think I had to worry about anything.

The short answer is that it probably doesn’t matter the way you are managing yours. Since you let them free range you don’t have a lot of control over it anyway, they do. The quality of the forage will have an effect but they are balancing it out. Now the long answer.

People get so hung up on what is best that they ignore that “best” might be a range or might depend on your goals. If your goals are show chickens, higher protein levels are better. Show chickens are bred to have bigger bodies and need more protein to grow bigger and maintain that extra body mass. When the feathers are growing it will help the feathers come in nicely, plus if you drizzle some vegetable or mineral oil on their feed the feathers will be even more shiny and attractive. Diet is important to show chickens. I don’t have show chickens.

People constantly misunderstand the terms “can” versus “will”. I haven’t read all those studies MeepBeep posted but I have some. They do not say that every single chicken in the flock will develop those problems if they are fed too much calcium. Some won’t. What they say is that the incidence of internal organ damage or skeletal damage across the flock will increase under the conditions of that study.

I might as well do this here then get back to your question. I think it is relevant to you, it applies to protein as well as calcium. Of course those studies are in lab conditions. They are paid for by the commercial chicken industry. They don’t free range their chickens. Their chickens don’t get fed any treats either. Their diet is strictly regulated. The goal of the commercial industry for those studies is to determine what diet produces the best gains for the minimum costs under their highly controlled conditions. Their conditions include not only what they eat but light and other things are strictly controlled. They use special hybrid chickens for meat production or egg production. They don’t use our dual purpose chickens or our decorative chickens. They don’t keep them the way we keep them. If you have thousands of chickens in one chicken house and you have several chicken houses, just a small change in mortality, deformity, or loss of efficiency has bigger repercussions that if you have a small backyard flock. These commercial studies show that while excess calcium “can” possibly cause a problem with an individual hen, it “will” cause increase mortality, deformity, or loss of efficiency across the entire huge flock.

Another important thing that is often ignored is that one bite won’t kill them. It’s not about how much protein or calcium is in one bite, it’s about how many grams of protein or calcium they eat during the entire day. One day doesn’t matter that much either, it’s over a period of many days. It is a cumulative effect, not an immediate effect. The more your chickens forage for their own food or the more treats you feed them the less impact what you feed them has. If someone provides everything they eat, then these warnings apply to them more than if the chickens forage a lot. If you have a broody hen raising chicks with forage available, she will take them to the feeders for some food but the majority of what they eat comes from forage. At least that is the way mine do it. A few bites of Layer isn’t going to have nearly the effect on them that it will if Layer is all they eat. This is the main reason people whose chickens forage a lot don’t have the same problems as people who provide every bite of their feed.

Higher levels of protein “can” cause your hens to lay larger eggs than they otherwise would. Commercial laying chickens have relatively smaller bodies and lay lots of large eggs. They have determined that if they feed their hybrid laying flock a feed with about 16% protein and around 4% calcium their chickens are able to maintain their bodies and stay healthy and produce a lot of Grade A large eggs. For their commercial hybrids that’s the most efficient model. Most of us don’t have the commercial hybrids.

There are another factors in that efficiency. Since higher protein “can” cause the eggs to be larger, hens that consistently lay large eggs for their body size are more prone to prolapse, become egg bound, or internal lay. Lots of hens lay a lot of huge double yolk eggs and don’t have these problems. It’s not that these large eggs “will” cause these problems each and every time, but across the huge flocks they have the increase in medical problems “will” be seen. Some people on this forum do have the commercial hybrids, our hatcheries offer them. Of course I don’t have detailed knowledge of how forum members manage all their chickens but I’ve noticed that some people that complain about how the commercial hybrids are so prone to prolapse, internal laying, and or becoming egg bound often feed a higher protein diet. They want to do what’s best for their girls so they feed them well. Excess protein is not the only reason these chickens have these problems. The commercial hybrids are as specialized in producing eggs as the commercial broilers are in producing meat. Their systems are more delicate than our dual purpose hens. They are more prone to these problems in any case. Breeding does matter. This is just me talking, I don’t think high levels of protein helps.

There is another reason the commercial industry doesn’t feed a higher protein level. A hen is programmed to release one yolk at a time. If two yolks are released at the same time you might get a double yolked egg. You might get two different eggs. If that second yolk is released later you will get two eggs in one day. Commercial operations don’t like this. The double yolkers not only increase the medical risk (however small that increase really is to the individual hen) but those big eggs don’t fit their cartons. They are rejects that are sold to people that crack eggs when they use them, like bakeries or for pet food. They get less money for those eggs plus they cause special handling. Not efficient at all. A hen’s body makes a certain amount of egg material in a day, especially the shell gland. It’s pretty common that the second egg is thin or soft shelled. These can easily break and make a mess in the nest or handling equipment. At best these thin shelled eggs are rejects and sold at a lower price but often they are just a mess. There is another problem with two eggs at the same time. If two eggs are in the shell gland together, even if they both get a coating of enough shell material, there will be scars and deformities. More reject eggs. One big cause of hens releasing excess yolks is a high protein diet.

In my short answer I said all this is pretty irrelevant to you. I doubt that you have the commercial hybrids. You probably have chickens with bigger bodies that can use the extra protein to maintain those bigger bodies. They are not as efficient as the commercial hybrids at converting protein to larger eggs. They have bigger bodies so they can better handle larger eggs anyway. But the biggest factor is that yours forage so much. What you actually feed them is probably such a small part of their overall diet that it doesn’t have a huge effect. I don’t think it matters if you feed 16%, 22%, or somewhere in between. I think yours will be healthy, active, and lay a lot of nice eggs whatever you feed them. And as MeepBeep said, their bodies will shed most of the excess protein out their rear end anyway.

 

[Sutremaine]

I don't ever offer oyster shell and I feed layer to all the flock, from young to old, male or female and my flocks never have illnesses...extremely healthy, never use meds of any kind to keep them that way.  Not for 40 yrs now and the chicks all healthy and turn into healthy, productive birds.

If you were feeding 100% bagged feed 100% of the time, would you be more concerned about the idea of calcium buildup? I imagine that when the chickens are out in spring and summer, they get enough forage to not eat so much of the 4% calcium feed, and so their intake can be a lot lower if they choose.

Hens and roosters that are in breeding pens need the higher protein levels. If your want healthy chicks at hatch, the parent chickens need the higher protein levels.

...But I want all that chick-producing goodness.

 

[Beekissed]

If you were feeding 100% bagged feed 100% of the time, would you be more concerned about the idea of calcium buildup? I imagine that when the chickens are out in spring and summer, they get enough forage to not eat so much of the 4% calcium feed, and so their intake can be a lot lower if they choose.
...But I want all that chick-producing goodness.

Nope. For one, I'd not put my flock into that situation....not if I wanted them to have optimal health. If they had to be confined for some reason, I'd be planting them some grow frames filled with good forage as well. Actually, the forage my birds feed on have WAY more calcium in them than the layer ration.

Here's the run down on just the white dutch clover they graze morning and evening, particularly in the spring and fall...if you'll note the calcium percentages there...and that calcium is WAY more digestible and easily utilized in the body than what is found in feed rations: http://www.feedipedia.org/node/245

And they do graze that clover actively and for extended periods of time, even the CX chickens made a point of feeding on the clover patches. Even plain ol' rye grass has 4.1% calcium. Can't imagine the percentages from my tall fescue in the fall, when it's the most likely to be consumed.

What a person needs to understand is how calcium is used in the body, even a chicken's body. The more muscle use, the more calcium is removed from the blood stream and deposited into bone matrix, there to be stored and makes for strong bones. Birds that are exercising~the rooster gets the most exercise in the flock~need more calcium than sedentary birds~such as those found in cages in commercial laying operations.

As for young, growing chicks....weird how all other young animals and even humans are expected to have a higher calcium intake to form good bones and muscles but chicks are not(wonder if anyone has informed the raptors of any of that?)? My chicks run their little legs off each and every day, they are not only high performance animals but they are also growing quickly and need all the extra nutrients they can get, particularly calcium and phosphorus.

If my birds were in cages or small pens and eating nothing but bagged feeds, then, yes....I'd be more concerned with calcium intake. They are virtually just a couch potato at that point and not using much energy at all for anything. That's why I stressed the fact that not all flocks fit into the whole dietary precautions and instructions folks dish out around here....that's book knowledge and has not much to do at all with real life situations that vary so greatly.

 

[rsweet]

So if like mine and they are stuck in a run because of predators what is the best course of action to feed them?At this point they get 100% layers feed and some daily treats, anything else I can throw their way?
Thanks

 

[RonP]

A lot of opinions, a lot of facts, and a lot of variables.

My birds are also confined.

I give them a lot of greens in season and out, in the way of silage.

Mostly finely cut lawn, and any household waste that won't hurt them.

I did my homework...

That said, I feed a 20% all flock, and offer free choice crushed oyster shells.

I always have a mixed flock, some laying and some not, as I do not cull nor care if they are too old to produce eggs.

They are working my compost pile.

In my opinion, this is best option for my situation, they choose not me.

All seem very happy and healthy, even those now 8+ years old.

As I said, a lot of opinions, a lot of facts, and a lot of variables.

 

[Beekissed]

I'd be developing some grow frames for clip and come again forages and also some vertical greens in pallets...then I'd mount those pallets in such a way that they'd have to do some exercise to reach them. I'd also do a composting deep litter system in the run so they can start growing their own bug and worm foraging opportunities while also keeping the run soil more healthy for living upon. You can even plant greens in guttering and hang these along the sides of the run, as long as you remember to plant them into netting so they can't be pulled out of the gutter all of a piece.

All of these things can provide more exercise, more nutrition, more natural diet and living, and even more of a habitat for your birds instead of just barren moon scape runs that can't drain due to overimpaction of the soils and are just petri dishes for disease and parasites. You can even erect some plastic low tunnels over your grow frames come fall and winter to keep them from freezing and you can also plant some cold hardy forages and greens in there.....white dutch clover is cold hardy, beets, kale, spinach, etc. will also survive very well in a low tunnel or you can just go with any number of grasses....tall fescue is cold hardy and actually gets more nutritious in the fall after frosts.

 

[rsweet]

Will straw work for a deep litter system in the run?

 

[Beekissed]

Will straw work for a deep litter system in the run?

Mixed with other things it can do fine, but I wouldn't use it for the whole depth of your litter....it will just be a sodden, damp mess that molds and doesn't compost for a long while. I would use a mix of things, with materials of different particle size and structure, for the best deep litter composting. Leaves, straw, hay, grass clippings, ramial wood chips, twigs, garden waste, weed clippings, etc. If it has different particle size and weight, the chickens can more easily move that top layer as they dig in it, thereby burying their own feces, sending them where they can do the most good~underneath the surface of the litter pack...this will also keep it from attracting flies. I'd leave the bottom layers undisturbed to preserve the microbial structures there and the moisture they need to survive....the different particle sizes will allow for air into the mass to help with composting.

Build it deep and out of varied materials and it should do fine.