Protein % of feed.

[chookchick]

How about letting the chickens pick what they need? Is anybody doing that, and is it even feasible? Since I like to feed mine a whole grain feed, I am going to offer the fish and alfalfa meal etc... as a separate option along with oyster shell and grit. I am curious to see if they will eat this separately. BTW I also have a 20% flock raiser available free choice. I read somewhere on the web about a guy who fed like that and it worked well for him.

 

[nop169]

We feed a 17% layer pellet with scratch mixed in at a rate of 3:1. Occaisionally throw in a few handfuls of dog food if they aren't laying well & move the pen on fresh greenery every week - works for us

 

[chookchick]

Okay, I went out and did some experimentation and observation today. I put out a container of fish meal, alfalfa meal and kelp today. The three chickens that ate it were--one finishing up a molt, one in the middle of a molt, and my speckled sussex who is just generally a pig and eats a lot of everything. I put in a pile of weeds, and also some grain mix (wheat, oats, cracked peas, corn and sunflower seeds). What was very interesting to me was that they almost completely ignored the weeds, even shotweed which they love, and the cabbage head, which has been a big hit. They were cowing down on the grains like crazy, and not eating a lot of crumble.

The difference today is that we are starting to have a cold, dry spell after about three weeks of rain. All the wildlife was going crazy today too. My sense was that they somehow "know" that they need to load up on carbohydrates for this cold weather, and not fill up on greens. Now I am recalling that the same thing happened last winter--they started to ignore the weeds, which had previously been a hit. One of my hens, who has just finished a molt, was cowing down oyster shell.

All this gives me much more confidence that they can indeed make the choices that they need if presented with healthy options. I'm going to continue to offer the fish meal etc...separately for them. Has anyone else seen changes in eating habits as the weather changes?

 

[Mac in Wisco]

They are capable of choosing to provide for their requirements. We see this with free choice oyster shells, when the hens actually need the calcium they start eating it. We also see this with feather picking that can commence when protein levels are too low. They innately know they need something and have a way of finding it. They also have a very keen ability to judge the amount of feed needed to meet their energy requirements.

There's something to be said for palitibility though. Hens don't care for very finely ground grains, they always pick over mash for the larger grains, saving the fines for last, and we have all heard folks here saying that their hens don't care for pelleted feed. Sometimes I think they would just rather chow down on scratch than eat something that may be better for them. I'm not sure if they would continue that to their detriment or not.

Edited to add:

More than likely they would, hence all the warnings about feeding too much scratch and diluting the regular layer ration.

There is a lot I have gleaned from numerous sources, yet I can't find a good link that gives a good overall synopsis of poultry nutrition. Most are gross generalizations: "feed a quality layer ration and don't feed too much scratch".

Here's a little something that relates to what we've been talking about:

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/poultry/pfs17.pdf

 

[tdgill]

they are such interesting eaters!

 

[sommrluv]

I wanted to respond to this because I didn't get a chance when the discussion continued over Thanksgiving (thanksgiving people!)

I'm curious as to why some would assume that the animal portion in bagged poultry rations would be "human food grade" and not something lower grade? You can pick up the phone, and call any large corporation that processes meat and provides for purina. The items that go to purina are processed as not for human consumption, or waste.

I don't buy into the urban myths of what some spread about rendering plants, but it's a fact, that any animal food made with animal protein is not up to the standards of human food. As for companies being sued, well there are existing lawsuits for animal deaths, because there are no real regulations or required testings on animal feeds. The FDA requires that the ingredients be safe...by that, meaning "Beef" is a 'safe, non poisonous ingredient'. Something like, Chlorine, would not be. They do not require testing on the beef.

This is the website on Animal Feeds.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/Products/AnimalFoodFeeds/IngredientsAdditives/default.htm

The FDA acknowledges that "Animal feeds provide a practical outlet for plant and animal byproducts not suitable for human consumption." (gristle, bone, unpopular offal, spoilage, etc) and also makes this statement

"The Official Publication of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) contains the most complete list of feed ingredients with their definitions. The Official Publication includes the list of approved food additives as well as the list of GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) substances. In addition, many of the ingredients in the AAFCO Official Publication are not approved food additives and may not meet the criteria needed to be recognized as GRAS (21 CFR 570.30). Nevertheless, FDA has accepted the listing of certain ingredients.

Personally, I keep my family on pretty healthy, very whole foods diet, with healthy local raised meats and grains and veggies. All of our own food is chemical and preservative free, which obviously involves a lot of cooking from scratch. For me, it's important to not trust any company, be it uni-lever or Purina, to tell me that food is safe and so are the ingredients. So if I'm eating a direct product from an animal, I want it to be happy and well fed. I just consider it a point of good animal stewardship. This is MY personal opinion. I am by no means telling anyone here that their choice to feed bagged feed from any company is somehow less healthy than my own. Currently I'm feeding a local milled bagged feed while I'm working on mixing my own.

I'll address feed in my next post to not make this too lengthy.

 

[sommrluv]

Now, back to the original question of percentage of feed. I still disagree with giving the chicken a lower percentage feed, say 16%, knowing they need more protein in winter. The chicken will eat the "complete feed", consuming more protein, but also consume more carbs, fillers, vitamins, if medicated, the medication...that is the point I was making earlier that seemed to be so taken out of context.

If you, as a human, take a multi-vitamin, and your doctor instructs you to take more iron into your system, do you increase your multi-vitamin to 2 a day? Or do you instead, add an iron pill, addressing the specific need?

Certain items in say, Purina Layena, such as salt, folic acid, vitamin D, some of the B vitamins, even excess lysine overtime can affect the health of your chickens. So, while acknowleding the chicken NEEDS more protein in the winter, and than assuming the chicken will get it from a complete feed, while consuming excess items it does NOT need...that was what I was debating. I would think it much easier to give the birds a seperate supply of corn/wheat/barley/mealworms etc to off set the need for additional protein.

And just, as a personal aside, my chickens will pass up oyster shell for tastier items, when I fed it seperately. I now mix it in with the mixed feed.

Also, I will not be feeding my chickens soy, because of the consequences on the reproductive system. Just something for others to possibly explore.

 

[Akane]

Are you speaking for all of us Northerners now? We're not talking about fattening up cattle.

I'm not feeding cattle. I'm feeding horses and long lived animals as well as chickens. Feed programs designed for meat animals are crap when we start discussing performance animals. They lead to major health problems real quick because they go to the other extreme in order to get as much growth and meat as possible as quickly as possible. Anything that lives beyond butchering age on such a diet ends up with too many health problems to survive long. Horse stables that feed like cattle growers do don't have horses performing even 1/10th as long as they could.

However that doesn't mean you can feed the minimum required all winter long and have them do as well as if you gave them what they need in a more concentrated source. My animals eat the same amount in summer as they do in winter. They just eat differently. They need different types of feed. All animals will start looking for higher energy sources and many will turn from eating the growing parts of plants to eating the reproductive parts since they are more concentrated. It's the same as when you take a horse from just standing around in the pasture to running nationwide barrel competitions. They need more energy and we don't expect them to just eat more feed because that has it's own health problems as well as possibly not getting everything they need or getting too much of something they don't need. Adding protein, fat, and carbs in winter is helpful and will get your animals through winter easier. The exception being if you are already over feeding these things in summer and causing fat animals. If your animals were kept in good condition and not over fed all summer they should require either an increase in feed or an increase in the energy the feed provides. Now the point I was making originally is that feeding a higher energy source ends up being more efficient for the animal. If they just have to take in more feed it means more effort to get what they need and you can't have a feed be balanced for both minimal intake and maximum intake. They don't use more of everything. In some animals if their energy needs increase drastically and you keep feeding the same feed as when their needs were low they will end up with vitamin overdoses. Vitamin A is a common culprit since it's a fat soluable vitamin and is often added to animal feed. Changing what you feed to match the needs of your animal will result in a much healthier animal that performs longer than just expecting them to try to take in what they need from a single source.​

 

[chookchick]

I think there may be a bit of confusion about what "energy" actually is....Calories are "energy"--every calorie in food is either fat, protein or carbohydrate. Any of these can be converted to "energy", or else converted to fat which is stored for later use as energy--that is, for warmth or to move around. Fats are very concentrated, carbohydrates and protein are equal in calorie count per gram. The problem with not enough protein is that they don't have enough to make eggs (very high in protein), or make new feathers, too much protein could be hard on the kidneys, I haven't really heard too much about how chickens handle too much protein. Mac is saying that the eggs will be too large for the health of hens, and they will get overly fat--does this apply to hens that move around a lot?

Too much fat--they will get fat...To many carbs, they don't get enough protein. The trick is balancing the ratios of all of these to perfectly (or closely) meet their needs (along with adequate amounts of vitamins, minerals).

Sommrlov--it has been proven that hens will take up oyster shell when they need it, this feeding method has been used for eons--it they don't eat it, they don't need it. Too much calcium can be hard on them.

What has not been shown (that I know of) is whether chickens can self-regulate their needs for other nutrients. This is what I am trying to establish. I know that they do have a strong preference for some foods that may overtake their self-regulation (scratch!!), so I do have to take that into consideration.