Public Health Concerns

[bargain]

Best wishes in your being able to "build a good case" for the chickens.....If I could testify for you, I would.....Just cannot afford that flight$

Praying for your successful outcome.. Keep us posted and you're welcome if I've helped you at all.

Have a blessed day!

 

[AZKat]

You're welcome.

I'll also say that although I do think that its a good thing that you're taking public health into account, your description of 'what could happen' seems to be more than a little alarmist, especially considering that wild birds can and do carry histoplasmosis, and they can and do fly everywhere and poop everywhere. I would think that in a area where histoplasmosis is a real concern, the soil is probably already contaminated by wild birds.
Again, I think that its great that you are taking public health concerns seriously, and that is something that should be taken into account. That said, I think that its important to make sure that the concerns aren't exaggerated. As you found out (and this is a great thing!) histoplasmosis, isn't an issue in California. Also, I think that when looking at things from a public health perspective, its important to weigh the risks posed by small scale urban and rural chicken keeping (even assuming it becomes more widespread) against the health risks posed by large scale industrial chicken operations.

 

[dlhunicorn]

There re responsible owners and irresponsible owners (i.e. cleanliness concerns etc)
Instead of looking at it as an "either/or" situation (i.e. allowed/banned) you might try the follwing:
Read posts on this forum on the positive side of chickens as pets, as 4-H learning projects for children etc. Copy some nice quirky posts of ppl having them as pets (see the link below for instance) and especially point out that breeds like silkies and decorative bantams (use the serama and some photos) are pure hobby (and not for food/eggs perse) > ppl who have chickens as pets take considerably more care of them than say someone who wants them purely as a cheap food source. What this is all gearing towards is suggest that each case be based on an individual basis including perhaps taking account of the neighbors wishes etc.
I think you will have more luck with this approach.
Here is that link:
http://www.browneggblueegg.com/BobyguardBullyingHens.html

 

[valereee]

Interesting -- I'm in the Ohio River valley. We know about histo, and the way most of us who are informed of the dangers handle it is to make sure someone other than pregnant women are handling cat boxes. I guess that would also apply to chicken coops. I may add that to my Chicken Manifesto if I ever do an update -- it's good to know what objections should be handled when approaching governments.

Quote:

 

[lngrid]

First thing I want to say is that not one word spoken to me in this thread has carried a whiff of disrespect. People carelessly reading could easily think I am picking a fight, but no one has done that. You guys rock.

Hiya, Azkat.

What you said about me being a little alarmist got me examining myself, because I believe it's irresponsible to be alarmist and I know I'm not perfect. I did a little more digging. If you read this page, it explains that no bird or bat carries histoplasmosis. It explains how common histoplasmosis is and why droppings are related to its danger. All the pages I've been reading so far indicate that accumulations of bird or bat droppings act like growth hormones for the fungus. If they mention specific birds they mention chickens and not wild birds. I'm guessing this is because greater numbers of people are exposed to flocks of poultry than flocks of wild birds. This explains the causes of the infection in humans, but also explains why birds don't carry it.

Thank you for motivating me to do a self-inventory. I am wrong often enough that it's always good to check myself. So I dug more and I found out that only about 800 people die of it every year. This was good to know and I hope people will read those words. But I've been concerned about something else. I've been worried about people getting very sick from it. Most people don't but the people who do are not all that uncommon:
very young children,
people who are HIV positive,
people with leukemia,
people with asthma,
people with Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disorder (COPD),
people who use steroid inhalers like Prednisone,
people who are on immunosuppresant drugs (like organ transplant patients),
long-term smokers,
people with diabetes,
people on chemotherapy
the elderly.

I personally know two families with four small children apiece, three diabetics, an organ transplant patient, a person with asthma, a person with COPD (both of them use Prednisone), 3 people on chemotherapy and five elderly people. I am a caregiver for the disabled, but these are not my clients. These are my friends and family. I am coming to think that if I lived in an climate where histoplasmosis could live, I would want the law to require my friends and family to be notified if chickens had been kept on a city lot they were thinking of buying.

I dug a little further and found a sticky devoted to histoplasmosis here at BYC. The OP got it (obviously), but these are posts from other people who were responding to her. I am not worried about the health of urban chicken-keepers. I know they can come here to learn about histoplasmosis. I'm worried about vulnerable people who buy property where chickens have been kept and don't know about histoplasmosis.

I'm sorry my post is getting so L O N G but her thread was 10 pages long. I just pasted here the people who had experience with histo. I pasted them here in the order they are on that thread:

Thank You for the reminder on Histoplasmosis, I believe it is a serious medical concern that is often forgotten about. Endemic initially to what is considered "the Ohio River Valley". We had the fortune to live on an old farm in Ohio for a few years when I was younger, no livestock, one lonely cat, and every farm building you could think of coop, barn, corn crib, tractor shed, woodworking shed, older farm house. They had not been used for farming for 20 years. Somewhere along the line in cleaning the place up and gardening, not sure what the source was, my young mother contracted histoplasmosis (I understand it can live in the soil for many years). It initially appeared as being a case of pneumonia and was treated as such when she went to the E.R. gasping for air, and high temp. After several weeks of not resolving, a doctor, who was not from the area, diagnosed her. In the end she developed lesions on her lung, and it had damaged her eyes. Yes, for many years and possibly now I believe (haven't read the lastest medical journals on it) the medical community believed that if you contracted it then you would only get it in either of those 2 places and rarely both. The outcome, lesions on her lung that had to be monitored 2x year minimum for the rest of her life to measure the size of the lesions to watch for increase in size. Her vision was seriously damaged in both eyes, (the eye doctors loved to examine her because they rarely get to see such a think first hand). We used to lovingly say, blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. Laser surgery was attempted in order to help correct the damage, the result of that was devastating, she lost all but a small pinpoint vision in the one of her better eyes at the time. She continued to loose vision in her other eye through the years. We lost my mother, my best friend, and farming mentor 5 years ago to cancer. She had gone for her routine check up including the chest x-rays and all was the same, no changes in x-ray or blood work. 30 days later she lay dying in a hospital bed. We never got to find out the primary site of the cancer, the doctors were focusing on trying to treat the aggressive cancer that had spread to her heart. The were unsuccessful, and she died 6 weeks after her diagnosis. My siblings and I feel that, in a remote way because of the changes in cell structure that her histoplasmosis played a part in her death. She was in her early 50's and as active and healthy as ever and teaching my children the art of gardening and loving the outdoors and planning for her day to get to have chickens on their 10 acres. I apologize for this being so long, but I wanted to share how something so small, and seemingly unimportant can change a persons life for the rest of their life. All the poking, prodding, testing she had done on a regular basis to monitor her histoplasmosis was not always enjoyable and loosing her vision had an impact on her life as well. My hope is that like the OP, others will give thought to this when they care for their birds, a simple small micron mask can go a long way in helping to prevent contraction. I would hate to hear that one of the new found BYC buddies had contracted this. To the OP I am so glad that you are slowly getting better, and the other posters who have known someone who contracted it my hearts are out to them. Though I will not live in fear of it, I do believe I will wear a mask when cleaning the coop, though it is not known to be in our area, to err on the side of caution is always better. Thanks for letting me ramble. Ferngully

And this, from BYCer Illinichick:
When my DD22 was 6 yrs old, she began running a low grade fever and had headaches daily. After going back and forth with dr's appts and him just basically giving up on finding the cause, I demanded that she be referred to St. Louis Children's Hosp. All it took was a chest xray and TB test to determine that she had Histo. The MD's there stated that during WWII, most men going into the service from the Mid West showed spots on their lungs during their service physical and that the medical community was afraid there was a TB outbreak. After research, they discovered that it was Histo and most people in the Midwest have or have had some form of it. My DD always loved playing in the leaves in the fall and they said that's where she probably got it. There is treatment for it but it is the same treatment they give people who have had a liver transplant , rejection drugs. These drugs have alot of side effects themselves so the person has to be very ill with Histo to make the drugs worth it. My DD went back to Barnes every 3 months for a chest xray and after 1 year, her lungs eventually calcified around the fungus. No last effects but I think those spots will always show up on her xrays.

This, from BYCer Mahonri (I wondered why he sweeps and mops his coop weekly):
Hate to admit it, especially since I have lots of face masks available.

I'm just trying to get over it and it's not easy.

We clean the coop weekly and my kids long ago told me they won't go in without a mask now.

From BYCer Mtnhomechick:
In some areas of the country it is present in the soil.

BUT, if you are working near bird or bat droppings it is always present.

That's why it's so important for THIS forum.

Chickens can get it too......which is why ventilation is paramount.

Mary

This is from ThiefPouter06:
I just left the eye doctor today with a histoplasmosis diagnosis. I have a big blurred sopt in my right eye from it. It could get worse (blindness) or not it can be treated if the risks dont out way it.

Again, from Mtnhomechick:
From what I understand it is treated with anti fungals..........NOT STEROIDS. Inhalers for asthma, COPD etc. could potentially make it worse. I believe I understood it is treated similiarly to TB.

Seriously, I asked for a sticky on this one. I was denied but I hope they do it because I think this is EXTREMELY important.

Mary
(Mary got her sticky)

Yet again, from Mtnhomechick:
Meant to add that I believe if it is treated properly you will completely recover. I know someone who " Knows Someone" who after $75,000 worth of treatment .....Fully Recovered.

God Bless,

Mary

This is from Oldtimegator:
A number of years ago I worked in Medical ICU at our teaching hospital and took care of a young woman who had histoplasmosis. She has been spelunking in caves and got it from the bat dung in the dirt/dust. She did recover after many weeks on a ventilator.

It can be VERY serious...especially in immunocompromised folks.

And this is from HobbyChickener:
I have a good friend - supplier that it almost killed because they couldn't figure it out. After some testing they found it to be worse around chicks and young birds than the adults. Must be from the heat they require.

From Greyfeather:
It's one of those things where small and gradual exposure to the pathogens, like people growing up on farms would have received, can build up a lifelong immunity.

Take someone without the exposure and they can get hammered by this. And it can be lethal in some rare instances!!

I am in no way saying that "farmers are tougher" and "enthusiasts are weak". Just be very careful, learn the symptoms and get to a doctor sooner rather than later if you develop some of them.

 

[dichotomymom]

I just wanted to add that we in Indiana are in a highly susceptible area for histo and of all the many farmers (poultry and otherwise) in my family and other people in our community, only one person has had symtoms of it and that was my Dad's co-worker (they build log cabins and tear down old barns for siding). I have severe asthma and of the many years of exposure to chicken coops, have never gotten it.

 

[AZKat]

The thing that I notice is that, even in the anecdotes you posted, at least one person got it from simply playing outside in an area where histoplasmosis is endemic. Obviously, chicken coops, which have higher concentrations of droppings, might be more of a risk, but based on what you've posted it sounds like, at least in high histoplasmosis areas, you could substitute 'setting up a bat box' or 'putting out food for wild birds' for 'having a chicken coop. Or in California, this article mentions 'earthquake' as something that could disturb the soil and send spores into the air. http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Pathogens/HC.html. As a side note, since you mentioned that you lived in California, it appears that the number of cases of histoplasmosis contracted in California is tiny, as in at most 2 or 3 a year, simply because the fungus is not in the soil. I found one article that dealt with HIV positive people who had become severely ill with histoplasmosis, it turned out that of the 46 men in the study, 40 had grown up in high histoplasmosis areas, and the disease had become acute after their immune system was compromised. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1304617/

Another thing that might be worth considering, since you're talking about urban chickens in a area with a low risk of histoplasmosis, is the question of how much of a risk a small flock poses. I'm bringing this up because the articles and the anecdotal examples you mentioned in your last post all seem to talk about people who live on farms, or on property that was used for farming for many, many years. As an example, when my grandmother was a girl, they got 100 chicks every spring, primarily for meat, in addition to maintaining a layer flock of 12-20 hens year round. And they didn't sell either meat or eggs, this was just for family consumption. My mother-in-law, whose family did sell birds for the table, as well as eggs, purchased 300 chicks every spring. What I'm trying to say is that if one is buying property that used to be an old farm, you could be talking about a place where thousands of birds had been raised over the years. The average backyard flock has perhaps 4-20 birds, which means that if someone had (for the sake of a round number) five hens for twenty years, their birds would put roughly the same amount of droppings into the soil that my grandmother's birds produced in one year. I'm not a doctor or an epidemiologist, but it seems to me that the volume of droppings would have to be a factor.

Again, I think its great that you're taking public health into consideration. I just question how much chicken keeping, especially small scale chicken keeping, is going to increase the risk, particularly in a area where histoplasmosis isn't in the soil to start with, especially if the issue is exposure to the next set of people to live on the property, and not the actual people keeping the coop.

 

[lngrid]

Ya know, when I was taking college composition courses, we were always told to consider our audience as we write, and I keep failing in that.

I am no longer concerned about histoplasmosis in my area. The climate here gets too hot and dry in the summer for it to survive.
I'm asking people who live where it does thrive to consider it when re-examining urban chicken-keeping laws where they live.
I know histoplasmosis only kills about 800 people a year.
I know it's rare for people to get badly sick from it now.
BUT I'm concerned that, as more and more people begin to keep chickens on urban lots, it will become more common.

My fiance owns rental property. He's required to pay for annual county inspections to insure he's not a slumlord. The county has decided a renter's right to live in a safe, healthy environment outweighs the landlord's right not to have to deal with the inspections.

I'm asking people to consider whether people in the vulnerable groups I listed above don't have the right to be warned if a property they are about to buy has had chickens kept on it. Does their right to protect themselves from what can be a very serious illness outweigh the right of a chicken-keeper not to have to register, the way cat and dog owners do?

Please let me add a personal note. I've been under a lot of stress this week. A family member was violently attacked Friday night in their care home. I've been dealing with my state's licensing board, the care home administrator, the caregiver, conducting my own investigation into the background of the attacker and trying to decipher the regulations for care homes this week. I'm only saying that because I'm afraid the frustration, fear and anger I've been feeling might be seeping through here and I don't mean for it to. But my brain is so turned to mush that I can't tell. If I sound offensive, please let me know and I'll change it. I don't mean to. You BYCers are actually therapeutic for me.

 

[bargain]

Ingrid, God bless you regarding your relative being attacked in a care facility....I used to work with programs helping the aged and disability....Please contact the Long Term Ombudsman Program in your state as this person might be able to assist you regarding the issues you have going on there. These are usually administered by either your State Office of Aging or another such entity and are trained staff and volunteers.. If you have trouble finding them, please pm me!

My prayers and thoughts are with you.

 

[3KillerBs]

It seems to me that, given the very small numbers of the vulnerable, it should be the people who know that they have compromised immune systems who have the duty to ask the right questions.

People need to take responsibility for their own issues instead of expecting the world to watch out for them while they remain passive.

As an example, I'm asthmatic. Its my business to know what my triggers are. Its my business, when buying a home, to tell my real estate agent that I only want to be shown places that are old enough to be done off-gassing because I'm sensitive to that stuff. Its my business to discover if there is a farm upwind because haying makes me wheeze. It my business to examine the attics and basements of the places I'm considering to determine if they are going to be healthy for me or harmful to me.

Its not the homeowner's job to provide a list of possible health conditions that a buyer might have and attach a warning label about stairs for heart patients, ragweed in the garden for asthmatic, or a complete list of every pet that every homeowner has ever brought into the place just in case its dander might possibly be lurking under the wall-to-wall waiting to strike the allergy-sufferer when they decided to redo a room.