Questions about the deep litter method

[Edgars Mom]

Hello there...

I have done a little reading about the deep litter method and it intrigues me. I love the idea of fewer chores and less work as well as the idea of having really good compost. But..... I have such a hard time believing that it doesn't smell.

My setup is a converted horse stall. I have it partitioned with three hens on one side and whatever group of turkeys we have on the other. Right now what I'm doing every day is going in and sifting the turkey stall all the way through, and then I take a little rake and shovel and go into where the hens are and scoop up any poos that I can see on their shavings. As you might imagine this is very time consuming. I'm essentially treating the bird stall the same way I treat the horses' stalls.

I'm interested in trying the deep litter method, but I'm afraid that I will smell it. I have a keen sense of smell and I'm sensitive so that's why I'm afraid to try. I don't want my horse barn to smell like birds, and I'm a freak about air quality.

The bottom of the coop is just the walls of the stall and it has a hardware cloth roof 6 or 7 feet up. The barn itself has really tall ceilings and the ventilation in there is excellent.

My questions are:

Is it true that there's no odour?

I'm a clean freak and I'm meticulous with the animals' enclosures. The rest of the barn gets a little messy as that is where I let things slide when time is at a premium. But my stalls are always immaculate and there is no ammonia. I work hard to prevent ammonia because it stinks and it is very unhealthy for the animals to breathe.

Since I'm a freak about air quality and my tolerance of smells is so low, would this be a method that could work for me?

If the end result has no odour, is there a stage it goes through before that where there is odour?

Can it be used with Turkeys? They poop a lot and their poop is huge and gross. I've actually been picking it up and sifting it out of the stall with a manure fork. I can't imagine how quickly it would pile up if left. I take out a few good forks full every day.

I have stall mattresses for horses on the floor over a stone dust base. Will it wreck my expensive mats? If not, what is the ideal flooring in the coop? The mats would probably be cozier in the winter, but without mats I'd have excellent drainage...So which is better?

I'm afraid to try the deep litter method but I really love the philosophy behind it and the idea of the compost and the potential for a reduced work load. I just popped on here hoping for some input to help me decide.

 

[Acre4Me]

Remove horse mattresses, layer lots of chipped wood. Use sweet pdz for smell management if your sensitive nose needs it.

since they are indoors in a stall, pooping all night, you might want to additionally make use of poop boards under the roost bars. Many people love them. They are just about 18-24” wide with an edge all around to hold in sweet pdz or sand. Birds poop all night, you use a kitty litter scoop in daytime to remove the poops once. Any other daytime poops will be on the floor/deep litter, but assume they spend time outdoors during the day.

Turkeys are an animal I’ve never raised. Dont know if they roost like chickens, or how best to manage them.

 

[3KillerBs]

There are two concepts that are readily confused, Deep Litter and Deep Bedding.

Deep Litter is a cold composting process where the poop and the bedding react together, breaking down both into compost. It requires moisture (not sogginess, but moisture), and benefits from direct ground contact.

When you have the balance between poop, bedding, and moisture correct there is no odor -- just an earthiness comparable to a forest floor. It never *needs* to be cleaned out unless it becomes inconveniently deep or you want compost for the garden. However, this is very difficult to do inside the coop itself because the coop is generally kept dry. It's better suited for the run.

Deep Bedding works by dehydrating the poop -- rendering it odor free by preventing decomposition. It's ideal for inside the coop because it needs to stay absolutely dry. You simply use enough bedding to dehydrate quantities of poop -- adding more layers as necessary. It's managed by regularly tossing a little scratch into the bedding to encourage the chickens to stir the litter up for you and by occasionally using the manure fork to break up crusted areas under the roost.

When it either gets inconveniently deep or you feel that the poop-to-bedding ratio is too high (different bedding materials last longer or shorter), you shovel it all out and either put it into the run or compost it directly.

 

[paintedChix]

Edited - this has become one of my "mini - books" and is long!

I'm not sure that it would work in your situation with an already in place, solid floor. Well, not true either - there are others here who say it does work...

In my situation(s) - all horse stalls, feed pens and chicken coops have been directly on the ground. One of the things we did with stalls that horses "tried to dig to china" - was re-level & pack them with clay and sand rather than straight sand and spent lots of time doing that on a regular basis. Over the years, we've had quite a number of ponies and horses who seem to like standing with their withers 3' below their rumps! & I've also had several full size horses that loved digging in corners or the back, forming a pile in the center/towards the front of the stall and you'd walk into the barn in the AM with the horse's head hanging over the top of a 7' stall door! I have actually had a pony sized arabian (full sized stall in trainer's barn) and a shetland pony (one mat at feed bucket) dig holes into the stall mats (mats were new in both cases)- that then had to be replaced, LOL. You can see quite a bit of our feed set up below, though not all of it. These ponies were not kept in those pens, in fact, when not feeding the pens were kept closed so no one fought and cornered another (there is a full size horse and a 1/2 Arab/Shet sharing the pasture with the two Shetland mares below). The two pictured, were not the only diggers in that time frame - I often threw "trash" into the holes and the ponies learned to step into their holes with tires, cardboard boxes, small water bottles, larger 2ltr bottles and shredded paper or pieces of tarps....



Now, I have chicken coops and pens directly on the ground that have similar sand to the above. The link below shows the different materials that we (mostly me) have used to do the DLM. But our coops are not on mats and stone dust base. They are also all predominantly open air - meaning they don't have solid sides, back or fronts. They have worked for us well over the 5-1/2 years we've been doing this now...

DLM

As to smell - even in an open air type coop, there can be smell. If I suddenly get "scent" that is strong, then I know I have to add more material of some kind - it works best to add different types & sizes - not all the same. Personally, chickens themselves have their own scent, just as horses/cats/dogs & other livestock do. Our open air coops sometimes get rain directly in them (storms have removed both tin properly attached to a roof and tarps over a hooped coop). Because of first the ground we are on and then as I've built up DLM, they have drained relatively fast and actually not been "stinky". Not sure if that would be the case in an enclosed chicken coop which, to me, would already have a "smell" of "chicken".

I don't know where you are located.

I have been in a LOT of barns here in NC (and now coops). They have almost all been built like typical horse/livestock barns. Even almost new, just occupied for a few months or having had great applications of stall mats - they STINK of horse, manure, urine and ammonia (and after hurricanes - of NASTY, wet sand - even in areas where the stalls were on a good stone/limestone base). I have had to excuse myself and walk out of quite a few. More than a few times, I've been violently ill after exiting a "smelly barn" and I'm not as sensitive to smells as most people I know. I have wondered since 1993 why North Carolinians refuse to build open air barns like they build in Arizona, California and Florida (Georgia?).

DLM is talked about a lot here on BYC. It is also talked about in depth on a lot of permaculture/homesteading websites and YouTube videos.

"Back in the day" - pioneer times in mid-west or western states - DLM was done with other livestock, too, not just chickens. It is a method where clean bedding (usually straw, but could be prairie grass or now even shavings or shredded paper) was layered on over the dirty bedding, manure & urine. Deep enough that you couldn't see the wet or dirty. It saved time in the winter for farmers who had plenty to do and a short amount of daylight. Then in the spring, the barns were cleaned out, all of the DLM (wasn't called that then) was hauled and spread out on fields OR put into a compost pile to finish composting (would have already started in the barns). This also worked to keep the barn(s) a bit warmer during the winter cold - especially since straw was often stacked or spread up the walls. Honestly, from 2009 to 2014, I was up in OH in Amish country a lot. I went into quite a number of barns that used a good system of "DLM" in their livestock barns (cows, pigs & horses) and their barns - not cleaned all winter - were cleaner smelling than most barns cleaned on a daily basis down here in NC. I was also in barns that didn't have a good DLM type system OR just needed more bedding in a more timely matter. They were BAD smelling and your throat closed and your eyes stung/watered. I also saw these methods used on two different Hutterite colonies in MT from 1995 thru 1997. It's pretty amazing!

Now I'm watching YouTube videos where this is being done, on the ground, not only with chickens but pigs kept in areas that the land owner wants good compost to be piled up to be utilized later. Same thing.

Sorry - back to you. If you are going to do it on mats - get some good garden dirt/compost (not store bought bags, but real stuff w/ the bugs, worms, bio-nutrients already working) to put in your stalls, too. A shovel full or so?? That will help the bedding/DLM to get started and keep going. When you clean it out, you don't remove all of it. If we have a dry spell (a lot), I will dump the water out from waterers or even bring a hose and hose it down a bit (did/do that on hot, dusty/enclosed horse stalls as well). You don't want hanging dust particles & do want the bedding to be a little moist in the bottom layer.

- bedding materials - different sizes & types - very important to allow moisture/air wicking.
- deep - from 6 -18" to start. If doing a true DLM on mats, it should still work (I think?).
- you don't have to clean or turn - usually - a bit of chicken feed or treats literally tossed into area needing turning - they will do the work.
- some moisture, but not really wet or wet on top. Certainly shouldn't need to wet it every day in most climates

Turkeys - I have no idea if this would work or not IF they are by themselves. If in with chickens, then I would expect it to work fine as the chickens would turn it for you. I only have experience w/ "stupid" commercially raised turkeys that DO NOT dig or seem to scratch at all. If your turkeys show an interest in scratching (the element that turns the manure under/into your DLM), then it should work the same as chickens.

 

[chikmaw]

There are two concepts that are readily confused, Deep Litter and Deep Bedding.

Deep Litter is a cold composting process where the poop and the bedding react together, breaking down both into compost. It requires moisture (not sogginess, but moisture), and benefits from direct ground contact.

When you have the balance between poop, bedding, and moisture correct there is no odor -- just an earthiness comparable to a forest floor. It never *needs* to be cleaned out unless it becomes inconveniently deep or you want compost for the garden. However, this is very difficult to do inside the coop itself because the coop is generally kept dry. It's better suited for the run.

Deep Bedding works by dehydrating the poop -- rendering it odor free by preventing decomposition. It's ideal for inside the coop because it needs to stay absolutely dry. You simply use enough bedding to dehydrate quantities of poop -- adding more layers as necessary. It's managed by regularly tossing a little scratch into the bedding to encourage the chickens to stir the litter up for you and by occasionally using the manure fork to break up crusted areas under the roost.

When it either gets inconveniently deep or you feel that the poop-to-bedding ratio is too high (different bedding materials last longer or shorter), you shovel it all out and either put it into the run or compost it directly.

After spending literally MONTHS researching the DLM... this is by far the best explanation I have come across! Thank you for explaining the difference between the DLS and the DBS. So I can use the hemp for the coop litter bedding, throw some scratch and let the chickens turn it over to keep it dry, add some if it needs it. Then clean it out every spring maybe? When I remove it from the coop can i throw it in the run and mix with other composting materials (scraps, leaves, weeds, greens) in the run and let the chickens compost it?

 

[paintedChix]

After spending literally MONTHS researching the DLM... this is by far the best explanation I have come across! Thank you for explaining the difference between the DLS and the DBS. So I can use the hemp for the coop litter bedding, throw some scratch and let the chickens turn it over to keep it dry, add some if it needs it. Then clean it out every spring maybe? When I remove it from the coop can i throw it in the run and mix with other composting materials (scraps, leaves, weeds, greens) in the run and let the chickens compost it?

and now the terms have"changed names", LOL...

When you say hemp - are you using just the hemp in your coop? So the DB or as you state - DBS not the true DLM/DLS?

and Yes, to the question about putting it into the run.

 

[chikmaw]

and now the terms have"changed names", LOL...

When you say hemp - are you using just the hemp in your coop? So the DB or as you state - DBS not the true DLM/DLS?

and Yes, to the question about putting it into the run.

ok now I'm confused... LOL Industrial hemp in the coop, keep it dry. When I clean the coop out... throw it in the run and compost with other materials. So the coop is Deep Bedding, the run is Deep Litter or Cold composting? Do I have it right now?

 

[paintedChix]

Yes, except it's only recently I've heard of DLM as cold composting.

Ours, at times, gets quite warm and steamy, just like a regular compost pile does/will. I do have to admit though, I've never put a temp probe in it.

 

[3KillerBs]

After spending literally MONTHS researching the DLM... this is by far the best explanation I have come across! Thank you for explaining the difference between the DLS and the DBS. So I can use the hemp for the coop litter bedding, throw some scratch and let the chickens turn it over to keep it dry, add some if it needs it. Then clean it out every spring maybe? When I remove it from the coop can i throw it in the run and mix with other composting materials (scraps, leaves, weeds, greens) in the run and let the chickens compost it?

Thank you.

I have never tried the hemp bedding. I used shavings with some pine straw mixed in because shavings last longer than straw and the pine straw mixed with shavings resists packing and matting.

I tossed all kinds of things into the chicken run, though if you put too many greens in with the browns you'll get an odor because the balance will be off.

Yes, except it's only recently I've heard of DLM as cold composting.

Ours, at times, gets quite warm and steamy, just like a regular compost pile does/will. I do have to admit though, I've never put a temp probe in it.

My deep litter never seemed to get warm in the in-town run. The composting coop bedding would heat up when I made the piles, but the run always seemed to be doing the slow, cold composting instead of the rapid, hot composting.

 

[chikmaw]

I like the idea of Industrial hemp because it is a cleaner, softer, no dust, more absorbant and is quicker to break down. I do not know this from experience, just from what I've read. But I have till Feb. to figure out what I am going to do. I may change my mind several times before I make a final decision