Quick (?) Question on Genetics of White (recessive/dominant) of this particular bird

[Amer]

My thing is if you want Ermine Ameraucanas, just buy some and save yourself the trouble of recreating them. If you want Ermine Easter Eggers, go ahead and make them.

 

[RememberTheWay]

My thing is if you want Ermine Ameraucanas, just buy some and save yourself the trouble of recreating them. If you want Ermine Easter Eggers, go ahead and make them.

Reasoning would be the prohibitive cost of Ermine Ameraucana's from breeders for day old chicks. If I wanted to purchase them I would have to buy days old because the cost of anything other then that is insanely high and then I would only be able to grow out a couple. What if they don't survive? That happens sometimes with chicks. The other reason is just for the fun and experience of breeding them back. I like True Ameraucana's, especially the bantams but Ameraucana's in general are very expensive and most lines are not that productive. I would like a line of them are are productive but also true to the standard. Maybe it will work maybe it won't....

 

[NatJ]

if you want Ermine Ameraucanas, just buy some and save yourself the trouble of recreating them.

The other reason is just for the fun and experience of breeding them back.

If you enjoy the project even more than the final result, then trying to make them yourself is definitely the way to go. If you just want Ermine Ameraucanas, then buying them is obviously more efficient.

Reasoning would be the prohibitive cost of Ermine Ameraucana's from breeders for day old chicks. If I wanted to purchase them I would have to buy days old because the cost of anything other then that is insanely high and then I would only be able to grow out a couple. What if they don't survive? That happens sometimes with chicks.

If you count the cost of housing and feeding your project stock for however many years, it would be cheaper to buy Ermine Ameraucanas anyway. Then again, if you would be housing and feeding the same number of chickens either way (project birds vs. Ermine Ameraucanas or a different project), then making them yourself does look like the cheaper option.

 

[RememberTheWay]

If you enjoy the project even more than the final result, then trying to make them yourself is definitely the way to go. If you just want Ermine Ameraucanas, then buying them is obviously more efficient.


If you count the cost of housing and feeding your project stock for however many years, it would be cheaper to buy Ermine Ameraucanas anyway. Then again, if you would be housing and feeding the same number of chickens either way (project birds vs. Ermine Ameraucanas or a different project), then making them yourself does look like the cheaper option.

And I am already housing and feeding many other breeds for several different reasons so it makes sense to educate myself along the way by breeding them. I am just starting out breeding but have kept poultry for about 6 yrs now. Mostly just BYM until this year. This year I decided to not only expand my stock to purebreds and my knowledge of genetics but start some fun projects a long the way too. I also added fun breeds this year. Up until now I only kept dual purpose and mostly layer breeds. I decided to start keeping bantams this year too. It's been fun and unfortunately my research and extensive reading can only take me so far. Eventually I have to actually put that knowledge into practice and learn hands on the nuances and how to work out the kinks that are unforseen. So here I am.... Really appreciate the help along the way though very grateful to listen to your advice and insights

 

[RememberTheWay]

If you enjoy the project even more than the final result, then trying to make them yourself is definitely the way to go. If you just want Ermine Ameraucanas, then buying them is obviously more efficient.


If you count the cost of housing and feeding your project stock for however many years, it would be cheaper to buy Ermine Ameraucanas anyway. Then again, if you would be housing and feeding the same number of chickens either way (project birds vs. Ermine Ameraucanas or a different project), then making them yourself does look like the cheaper option.

I think my next question though is if Ermines are simply paint Ameraucana's then how is all the black in an Ermine created? Most paints that I see in any breed are very randomly covered in black plumage and it is highly sporadic. How do you achieve higher levels of "paint" when breeding paint and is it best to start with an all white and and all black bird or should you start with a paint to a black or paint to a white bird and does it matter which way these go regarding genders?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Dominant white. Heterozygous dominant white is paint. The solid white is most likely a “spotless” paint, but I can’t rule out that the easter egger and Leghorn carry recessive white so it might be both dominant and recessive white.

Thank you. That makes sense as only one dominant white gene is being passed to suppress the black and therefore produces paint.

I'm curious. What sets the paint pattern? Does dominant white affect certain body parts (feather) such as hackle, back? Once you get both sets of dominant white (homozygous), is it then a "white out?"

Inquiring minds want to learn.

LofMc

 

[NatJ]

I think my next question though is if Ermines are simply paint Ameraucana's then how is all the black in an Ermine created? Most paints that I see in any breed are very randomly covered in black plumage and it is highly sporadic. How do you achieve higher levels of "paint" when breeding paint and

Unfortunately, I do not know. I have been wondering that as well.

I would guess there are some genes that do affect how the black and white are distributed over the chicken, but I don't know anything about them, and I haven't seen anything talking about them. The most obvious thing to do, when breeding any pattern that is not fully understood, is to pick the best male and female examples you have available and breed them to each other, see how the offspring come out, and keep good records (photos can be helpful to see patterns over time, that you might miss in the moment.) Breed some of the less-good ones too, and again see what offspring you get, because sometimes you will be pleasantly surprised, and other times you will learn more about what is going on.

is it best to start with an all white and and all black bird or should you start with a paint to a black or paint to a white bird and does it matter which way these go regarding genders?

The genders should not matter.

White x black should give you just paint chicks in the first generation, but you don't have any way to predict how much black will show on them

If you start with a paint, you can see how much black it has, and how the black is distributed on it.

Paint x black = 50% paint and 50% black
Paint x white = 50% paint and 50% white
Paint x paint = 50% paint, 25% black, 25% white
Any of those crosses will give about 50% paint chicks, so I don't see any obvious reason to choose one over another. Maybe see what birds are available, and work from there.

I notice Cackle Hatchery lists Erminette Ameraucanas, and has some discussion of how their breeding works. It might be useful to use even a few birds from them or from a breeder, to help get the right genes to control how the black and white are distributed. That might be a middle ground, between making your own completely from scratch or buying enough for a whole flock.

 

[Amer]

If you enjoy the project even more than the final result, then trying to make them yourself is definitely the way to go. If you just want Ermine Ameraucanas, then buying them is obviously more efficient.


If you count the cost of housing and feeding your project stock for however many years, it would be cheaper to buy Ermine Ameraucanas anyway. Then again, if you would be housing and feeding the same number of chickens either way (project birds vs. Ermine Ameraucanas or a different project), then making them yourself does look like the cheaper option.

Agreed
If you like a project go for it
But buying the finished product is always cheaper even if it’s really expensive, lol