Ragged/Disheveled/Ruffled Feather Troubleshooting?

[chickentenders_la]

Hi BYC Family!

I've had one of my white rock hens (Karen) who has looked quiet disheveled for some time and we're trying to figure out what her issue is. At first we thought she was molting, but her feathers have not looked smooth like our other white rock since about Dec/Jan.

Here's what we have been troubleshooting so far:

• Ruled out molting, as it's been quite a few months now
• Checked and cleaned her vent to rule out vent gleet; she didn't have a very dirty vent area (very little stuck poop on feathers), but checked/cleaned anyway
• Have not checked for mites quite yet - but figured the whole flock would have mites and not just her

A couple of notes on her health:

• She's on the smaller side, not as fat as her flock mate - not sure if that's 100% attributed to her lack of feathers?
• She's eating and drinking just fine - no change in her eating/drinking behavior
• Her poops are looking normal - she did have a case of impacted crop a couple of weeks ago, but I'm almost positive it's due to her loading up on grass on the other side of the fence because we separated her so she could get some peace and quiet (from the bullying described below). I was able to break it up with coconut oil and she passed everything just fine
• I've confirmed she is laying her eggs as expected; no changes there
• Her comb and wattles are bright red; no change in color there
• OF NOTE: We introduced 7 babies in November, 1 of them being an accidental rooster
  • He has started to mate (VERY regularly) within the last 2 months and with the addition of the babies, there has been the expected restructure of the flock
  • Within this time, our poor Karen has been knocked to probably the last in line of the pecking order and most of the hens in our flock have started to pick on her
  • I WANT to say this was the cause of her disheveled look, but am still looking for input in case it's not just the pecking order restructure?
• As of 2 days ago, we have rehomed our rooster, and peace is already restoring to the flock - all the others are less agitated and not singling Karen out as much, which should reduce stress to her little body
• She is in good spirits - very fiesty despite the bullying etc

Wondering if there's anything else that could be causing her poor feather quality? Thanks in advance!

Photos included below:

 

[EggSighted4Life]

her feathers have not looked smooth like our other white rock since about Dec/Jan.

They won't improve until she molts those feathers out, even if everything has been fixed. The fact they looked like that before chicks were added could be age related with them already being older worn feathers that still need to molt out and be replaced. How old was she then and has she molted yet, usually also includes not laying eggs.

Check the color of her skin on her abdomen and below her vent.. is it light and normal looking like the rest or angry and red? Checking after dark with a flashlight can make it easiest to see crawlies running away.

Have not checked for mites quite yet - but figured the whole flock would have mites and not just her

That's an incorrect assumption since each bird has it's own bathing and foraging habits and also immune system. Somebody has to be the weakest link!

Studies conducted in California showed that 10% of the birds in backyard flocks carried 90% of the parasites within the same flock. I took a hen to the vet to rule out depluming mites since feathers had been pulled out and not grown back in. She was declared clean of all external parasites. I came home and inspected a rooster who was leaving that same day, and he was loaded.

If her skin is light pinkish, then she may just still be do for a good molt.

I will note that Rocks and other heavy breeds will do best on a feed with at least 18% protein. Feathers are made from 90% protein and it's amino acids... and while feather picking/eating gets blamed on protein lack they are only 2% digestible. So poor nutrition (too many low nutrient snacks or wrong feed) can be another cause of poor feather quality.

Due to different lay rates and having older molters or broodies or chicks/roosters who do not need excess calcium but could use the protein is the reason I like and suggest a flock raiser feed with 20% protein and oyster shell free choice on the side for active layers. Since learning about the difference and switching away from "layer" feed it has really made a noticeable difference in the condition of birds as they enter molt way less hard than before and recover sooner, not impacting their personalities as much.

7 babies should not have interrupted an older groups pecking order before the mating started.. they should have been the receivers of crap rolling down hill. Was she molting at that time? Usually the little's avoid the big's and can be a very long time before they interact as a single group. I do see something new every day though, with chicken keeping!

Hope you are enjoying BYC!

 

[chickentenders_la]

They won't improve until she molts those feathers out, even if everything has been fixed. The fact they looked like that before chicks were added could be age related with them already being older worn feathers that still need to molt out and be replaced. How old was she then and has she molted yet, usually also includes not laying eggs.

Check the color of her skin on her abdomen and below her vent.. is it light and normal looking like the rest or angry and red? Checking after dark with a flashlight can make it easiest to see crawlies running away.


That's an incorrect assumption since each bird has it's own bathing and foraging habits and also immune system. Somebody has to be the weakest link!

Studies conducted in California showed that 10% of the birds in backyard flocks carried 90% of the parasites within the same flock. I took a hen to the vet to rule out depluming mites since feathers had been pulled out and not grown back in. She was declared clean of all external parasites. I came home and inspected a rooster who was leaving that same day, and he was loaded.

If her skin is light pinkish, then she may just still be do for a good molt.

I will note that Rocks and other heavy breeds will do best on a feed with at least 18% protein. Feathers are made from 90% protein and it's amino acids... and while feather picking/eating gets blamed on protein lack they are only 2% digestible. So poor nutrition (too many low nutrient snacks or wrong feed) can be another cause of poor feather quality.

Due to different lay rates and having older molters or broodies or chicks/roosters who do not need excess calcium but could use the protein is the reason I like and suggest a flock raiser feed with 20% protein and oyster shell free choice on the side for active layers. Since learning about the difference and switching away from "layer" feed it has really made a noticeable difference in the condition of birds as they enter molt way less hard than before and recover sooner, not impacting their personalities as much.

7 babies should not have interrupted an older groups pecking order before the mating started.. they should have been the receivers of crap rolling down hill. Was she molting at that time? Usually the little's avoid the big's and can be a very long time before they interact as a single group. I do see something new every day though, with chicken keeping!

Hope you are enjoying BYC!

Wow, thanks for the detailed information on feather condition and protein %! We have the whole flock on Simplicity Organics 18%. For Karen in particular, when I was separating her from the flock and hanging out with her in the yard (I have an outdoor desk setup for work), I beefed up her meals with eggs and yogurt to help provide her with better nutrition than the feed. That was only for a week or so, so I plan on continue with high protein snacks; in the meantime, should we consider switching to to higher protein flock raiser feed? We have only 3 Rocks left - the rest are Marans and Australorps. It sounds like you've already seen this make a difference in your flock's feather condition!

Thanks again for calling out my assumption - we're going to check her out more closely this weekend to check her skin condition and to see if we notice any signs of parasites. I also read on another thread after I posted this that the feather quality won't improve until her next molt - so thanks for confirming this fact! Always learning something new with these ladies!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

, should we consider switching to to higher protein flock raiser feed? We have only 3 Rocks left - the rest are Marans and Australorps.

18% protein should be fine really. The Australorp and Marans are also heavy breeds.. I don't think flock raiser is available in organic.. for that you could go with a "starter" more easily. Remembering it's not just the protein amount but look at the amino acid content.
Yours currently..

Crude Protein (min) 18.00%

Lysine (min) 0.70%

Methionine (min) 0.47%

The purina FR..

Crude Protein MIN 20.00 %

Lysine MIN 1.10 %

Methionine MIN 0.55 %

I beefed up her meals with eggs and yogurt to help provide her with better nutrition than the feed.

Beware of what folks call high protein snack. It's true that eggs for example are 34% protein but also a whopping 64% fat with half the protein and good portion of the micro nutrients coming from the yolk itself. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "better" nutrition than the feed which IS a complete nutrition source IF we don't diminish it. Also, your birds cannot put nutrients into their eggs if it's not in the diet.. so if anything is missing or even not absorbed by a specific hen for whatever reason then feeding eggs may compound the issues instead of fixing them, just for discussion sake. I understand it was short term and they are an excellent, very palatable therefore enticing, easy to digest source of pretty good nutrients and energy.

Birds don't really digest dairy well. Using it as an enticement if they are off and not eating can be a good way to get something in though! Many feeds already add probiotics into their mix (I don't see it in yours). Using RAW apple cider vinegar (with mother) mixed in water is what some folks do to add probiotics. Others "ferment" their feed, which I can strongly suggest against on a full time basis after doing it for a flock of 80+ for 2 years.. it's a lot of hype.

Tell you what I MIGHT do or consider instead of switching feed, since folks going corn/soy free organic are usually doing so for a reason.. I might consider an occasional supplement like Poultry Nutri Drench has amino acids, is fast acting, and can sometimes help save a life. I have on hand for shipped chicks and emergency use like after a predator attack.

The other 2 best options are Rooster Booster (brand) Poultry Cell (product) or Poultry Booster (product). No supplement should be given more than 10 days in a row.

Seriously though, your feed seems fine.. I probably wouldn't want that high of calcium content unavoidable long term for slower layers but no fear mongering here. It will be fun to see how your adventure grows and changes throughout the years after coming to BYC!

I did see the difference in my flock, specifically during molt.. but I was using 16% protein before going to the 20%. It wasn't their feather condition I saw a difference in.. it was their entire demeanor during molt.. they just felt better, didn't withdrawal and hide, still hung out. Since they eat bugs and a variety of grasses, weeds, and even fruits free ranging here I realized how little control I actually have over their intake.

22% protein offers the highest hatch rates so to me that's maximum egg performance.. ie nutrients in the eggs my family is consuming. Hatch rate declines at protein levels above that. I bet that's in confined birds now that I think about it. Protein is expensive and plant protein is not equal in value to animal sources of protein. I'm not sure how much it matters since they add the amino acids. But this is my attention to detail probably muddying the water by going to far.. I have a hard time not over thinking and sharing some too. So please always feel free to get second and third opinions as we all make mistakes and ALWAYS do what makes the most sense to YOU for your flock and your goals!

 

[chickentenders_la]

18% protein should be fine really. The Australorp and Marans are also heavy breeds.. I don't think flock raiser is available in organic.. for that you could go with a "starter" more easily. Remembering it's not just the protein amount but look at the amino acid content.
Yours currently..

Crude Protein (min) 18.00%

Lysine (min) 0.70%

Methionine (min) 0.47%

The purina FR..

Crude Protein MIN 20.00 %

Lysine MIN 1.10 %

Methionine MIN 0.55 %




Beware of what folks call high protein snack. It's true that eggs for example are 34% protein but also a whopping 64% fat with half the protein and good portion of the micro nutrients coming from the yolk itself. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "better" nutrition than the feed which IS a complete nutrition source IF we don't diminish it. Also, your birds cannot put nutrients into their eggs if it's not in the diet.. so if anything is missing or even not absorbed by a specific hen for whatever reason then feeding eggs may compound the issues instead of fixing them, just for discussion sake. I understand it was short term and they are an excellent, very palatable therefore enticing, easy to digest source of pretty good nutrients and energy.

Birds don't really digest dairy well. Using it as an enticement if they are off and not eating can be a good way to get something in though! Many feeds already add probiotics into their mix (I don't see it in yours). Using RAW apple cider vinegar (with mother) mixed in water is what some folks do to add probiotics. Others "ferment" their feed, which I can strongly suggest against on a full time basis after doing it for a flock of 80+ for 2 years.. it's a lot of hype.

Tell you what I MIGHT do or consider instead of switching feed, since folks going corn/soy free organic are usually doing so for a reason.. I might consider an occasional supplement like Poultry Nutri Drench has amino acids, is fast acting, and can sometimes help save a life. I have on hand for shipped chicks and emergency use like after a predator attack.

The other 2 best options are Rooster Booster (brand) Poultry Cell (product) or Poultry Booster (product). No supplement should be given more than 10 days in a row.

Seriously though, your feed seems fine.. I probably wouldn't want that high of calcium content unavoidable long term for slower layers but no fear mongering here. It will be fun to see how your adventure grows and changes throughout the years after coming to BYC!

I did see the difference in my flock, specifically during molt.. but I was using 16% protein before going to the 20%. It wasn't their feather condition I saw a difference in.. it was their entire demeanor during molt.. they just felt better, didn't withdrawal and hide, still hung out. Since they eat bugs and a variety of grasses, weeds, and even fruits free ranging here I realized how little control I actually have over their intake.

22% protein offers the highest hatch rates so to me that's maximum egg performance.. ie nutrients in the eggs my family is consuming. Hatch rate declines at protein levels above that. I bet that's in confined birds now that I think about it. Protein is expensive and plant protein is not equal in value to animal sources of protein. I'm not sure how much it matters since they add the amino acids. But this is my attention to detail probably muddying the water by going to far.. I have a hard time not over thinking and sharing some too. So please always feel free to get second and third opinions as we all make mistakes and ALWAYS do what makes the most sense to YOU for your flock and your goals!

Very appreciative for all the nutrition information provided! I've added raw ACV to their supplemental waterer (the one outside of the run for when they free range), and also have NutriDrench on hand from a previous situation - so I'll keep that in mind as an occasional supplement as well!

Wish we were able to keep the supply year round, but we do order the meal worms for protein treats that lasts for a few weeks a few times a year. Might just put in an order today, now that I think about it I think the last time was October.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Wish we were able to keep the supply year round, but we do order the meal worms for protein treats

But really they are fat treats since it's almost equal in quantities.. so just remember they are a TREAT not a supplement.

From rainbowmealworms.net

Live mealworm nutrition from.. https://dubiaroaches.com/blogs/faq/mealworm-faqs#3

What are the nutrition facts for mealworms?​

• Moisture — 61.9%
• Protein — 18.7%
• Fat — 13.4%
• Ash — 0.9%
• Fiber — 2.5%
• Calcium — 169mg/kg
• Phosphorus — 2950mg/kg

Now from a human source, I have to presume dried instead of live noting that calories (energy) come from only 3 sources that's fat, protein, and carbs (including fiber). Dry matter is what counts not moisture ultimately.

https://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/meal-worms-95345395

223 Cal
11% 6g Carbs
51% 12g Fat
38% 20g Protein

Based on the live analysis.. that's not really much if any over your standard feed protein content.. but quite a bit more fat and way less nutrients. If protein is your true intent.. keep it simple and go with a cooked (or even raw) chicken breast, some lean beef, or even some tuna or mackerel or other fish. There's gotta be lower fat actual high protein choices.

While fat is not what causes fatty live hemorrhagic syndrome. Excess calories from ANY source can multiply genetic (preexisting hidden) conditions.. With excess protein contributing to gout, kidney failure, and even sudden death. Balance is key

So just remember that they are NOT "nutritional" snacks per say but just good fun snacks which you probably enjoy feeding out and they certainly enjoy eating.

Our standard feeds are formulated by law (in the US) to meet the nutritional needs (even if minimally in some cases) of the age and species they are labeled for. They have synthetically added in (even in organic feed) any vitamins, minerals, and amino acids that may have been lacking in the feed stuff sources. Why folks try to convince us some things offer more nutrition that actually don't on a micro nutrient level will probably never change.

Your feed should not and does not need "supplementing", sincerely.

Rainbow mealworm is in the socal area and even ship live worms, I've ordered successfully from them twice before. It looked like some other choices could even offer better protein to fat ratios on that chart from them.. like the butter worms or Dubai roaches, or crickets which are fantastic fun!

https://www.rainbowmealworms.net/

 

[chickentenders_la]

But really they are fat treats since it's almost equal in quantities.. so just remember they are a TREAT not a supplement.

From rainbowmealworms.net
View attachment 3053184

Live mealworm nutrition from.. https://dubiaroaches.com/blogs/faq/mealworm-faqs#3

What are the nutrition facts for mealworms?​

• Moisture — 61.9%
• Protein — 18.7%
• Fat — 13.4%
• Ash — 0.9%
• Fiber — 2.5%
• Calcium — 169mg/kg
• Phosphorus — 2950mg/kg

Now from a human source, I have to presume dried instead of live noting that calories (energy) come from only 3 sources that's fat, protein, and carbs (including fiber). Dry matter is what counts not moisture ultimately.

https://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/meal-worms-95345395

223 Cal
11% 6g Carbs
51% 12g Fat
38% 20g Protein

Based on the live analysis.. that's not really much if any over your standard feed protein content.. but quite a bit more fat and way less nutrients. If protein is your true intent.. keep it simple and go with a cooked (or even raw) chicken breast, some lean beef, or even some tuna or mackerel or other fish. There's gotta be lower fat actual high protein choices.

While fat is not what causes fatty live hemorrhagic syndrome. Excess calories from ANY source can multiply genetic (preexisting hidden) conditions.. With excess protein contributing to gout, kidney failure, and even sudden death. Balance is key

So just remember that they are NOT "nutritional" snacks per say but just good fun snacks which you probably enjoy feeding out and they certainly enjoy eating.

Our standard feeds are formulated by law (in the US) to meet the nutritional needs (even if minimally in some cases) of the age and species they are labeled for. They have synthetically added in (even in organic feed) any vitamins, minerals, and amino acids that may have been lacking in the feed stuff sources. Why folks try to convince us some things offer more nutrition that actually don't on a micro nutrient level will probably never change.

Your feed should not and does not need "supplementing", sincerely.

Rainbow mealworm is in the socal area and even ship live worms, I've ordered successfully from them twice before. It looked like some other choices could even offer better protein to fat ratios on that chart from them.. like the butter worms or Dubai roaches, or crickets which are fantastic fun!

https://www.rainbowmealworms.net/

Thanks for more fantastic info on supplemental snacks

We exclusively order from rainbow mealworms, our hens won't even TOUCH a dried mealworm