Raising Chickens Organically

[Chris09]

My game bird grower made by coop has porcine meal in it. The game bird grower is then used to formulate a mix with whole grains the birds to grow well on. Has anyone looked up the price for fishmeal? That might be a way around the problem many face where local feeds do not have appreciable amounts of animal protein yet stay good with respect to organic criteria.

My gamebird feed contains porcine meat meal also along with fish meal. I then cut the 30% gamebird feed with grains to get the feed mix that I want for the age of fowl I'm feeding. I think more people need to look outside the box if they really want animal proteins in there poultry feed.
Now I also top the feed with another mix of mine that contains fish meal, porcine meat meal, dried animal blood cells, dried egg product, chicken, chicken by-product meal, beef liver, chicken liver, beef tripe and whey proteins as a source of animal proteins. I know its a bit of over kill but I like animal proteins in my poultry feed.

Organic fish meal runs about 80.00 a 50lb bag around here.
Now that may sound like a lot to some people on here but when you consider that the maximum amount of fish meal that should be used in a poultry feed is 10% and the average is around 5% that's not all that bad of a price to pay to get the feed you want.
That comes out to around 8 to 4.00 for every 100lbs of feed mixed.

 

[poorfarm]

All of the feeds available to me state they are all vegetable derived on the label. I'm a habitual fine print label reader, and I haven't seen any poultry feed with animal protein in it at my feed suppliers for many, many years. Since I've been using the Kalmbach 20% for years now without a problem, I can hope that whatever was wrong with it has since been addressed. However, my belief is that those of us fortunate enough to truly "free-range" our flocks tend not to see these nutritional problems very often, because the birds have access to green vegetation, bugs, minerals, etc. as they forage. OK, opinionated opinion disclaimer coming up here. May contain politics or other aggravating stuff. Please do not read if you are prone to heartburn etc. at politically incorrect opinions, or to burning people at the stake for expressing them. Thank you, you cooperation and patience are greatly appreciated.

Yes, the last I heard poultry was not susceptible to mad cow disease, but that is where this "no animal byproduct" push originated. Logic and common sense have very little to do with it. Back when, I had a sheep farm and sold meat lambs direct to my customers at a decent price, rather than sell them to a packer through an auction at less than their feed cost. Suddenly the small local slaughterhouse I used told me they could not butcher sheep anymore because there was a new law that the rendering plants couldn't take any offal containing the brains or spinal cords of sheep/lambs because it might have scrapie, which might cause mad cow disease, which might get into the animal/poultry/pet feed, which might cause Jacob Kreutzfeld (not sure of spelling) disease in people. Please note there was no such restriction on cattle offal, which is in fact the only animal that carried mad cow disease.

So, I'm looking for the logic in this because it's going to put me out of business that very day. Start with, if a sheep had scrapie, the prions are in ALL of the nerve tissue, which is throughout the body, not limited to the brain and spinal cord. Then too, despite repeated attempts by the scientists, no one had ever managed to infect a cow with mad cow disease with the use of confirmed scrapie infected sheep tissues. Then on to, but poultry don't get mad cow disease, do they?

So, I call the USDA vet in charge of all this rendering plant stuff on the phone in Washington DC. He is a nice fellow and we have a civil discussion, and I bring up all these points. And he agrees with me that it's stupid, not necessary, and wouldn't work if cows did get mad cow disease from rendered sheep with scrapie. BUT he says, it's all about public perception, the public perception is that they are in danger, the media is full of stories about scrapie causing mad cow disease, and we have be seen by the public to do something. And he was sorry I was going to be put out of business, personally very apologetic, but nothing could be done. He spoke to me very frankly, and in return I promised I would not repeat his name. Now, as an aside, the slaughterhouse said they would butcher my lambs for me if I would take the heads and spinal cords and dispose of them myself somehow. Which by local laws was illegal to put in the household trash and send to the landfill, and per the EPA was illegal to bury or burn on my property. And I really do wonder what the big packing companies who slaughter lambs in the US did with their own offal. Bottom line--something had to be done to appease Public Perception, there weren't enough small farmer US sheep producers to cause a problem over it, and the big ones belonged body and soul to the same corporate ag group that owned the packing company so it didn't affect them.

About that time was when the food buying public who bothered to ask, started asking if the chickens their eggs came from were being fed rendered animal products, and suddenly you started seeing bold print labels on feeds stating they were all-vegetarian derived and labels on eggs that the chickens were all vegetarian fed. Also, vegetarian diets got a big popularity boost around that same time, and there were a few more ancillary things happening like trans fats and omega threes, and other most current healthy diet advice. (Just an aside here, remember when eating eggs would give you a heart attack from cholesterol, ditto for butter? Eat more margarine for a healthy heart?) Lots of big Mad Cow scare headlines, lots of scary statements in the media unsubstantiated by scientific studies. At the same time, although every case of Mad Cow disease here had been found in cattle imported from Canada, the USDA announced that the problem had been taken care of and cattle imports from Canada could resume (and as I recall right after that there was another confirmed case of Mad Cow disease found in an imported cow).

Does any of this mad cow scare remind you of anything? Like Bird Flu? Which is a real interesting topic. I remember when I was a kid and the big agricultural/public food supply panic was over Exotic Newcastle Disease. Which was confirmed in sparrows flying in and out of the big chicken factory buildings, but I never saw anything about government action to control that. I vividly remember however, that the USDA people, warrants in hand, were breaking open people's doors down south, grabbing pet parrots out of their cages in the living room and wringing their necks in front of the family, to protect us all from having the US poultry supply wiped out by Exotic Newcastle Disease and us all starving. Funny how you don't hear anything about that anymore. I will stop this rant about illogical actions and public perception issues with one last thought lest I give my own self a case of heartburn: Don't think it can't happen to us, today.

 

[centrarchid]

Does any of this mad cow scare remind you of anything?  Like Bird Flu?  Which is a real interesting topic.  I remember when I was a kid and the big agricultural/public food supply panic was over Exotic Newcastle Disease.  Which was confirmed in sparrows flying in and out of the big chicken factory buildings, but I never saw anything about government action to control that.  I vividly remember however, that the USDA people, warrants in hand, were breaking open people's doors down south, grabbing pet parrots out of their cages in the living room and wringing their necks in front of the family, to protect us all from having the US poultry supply wiped out by Exotic Newcastle Disease and us all starving.  Funny how you don't hear anything about that anymore.  I will stop this rant about illogical actions and public perception issues with one last thought lest I give my own self a case of heartburn: Don't think it can't happen to us, today.

Somehow the above I have a hard time believing. Even in the past that would result in someone being fired pretty quick. The statement you make looks to be fear mongering.

EDIT: in bold

 

[poorfarm]

Which particular statement? Because I give you my word, and I am known as a very honest person, that everything that I said is true.

 

[centrarchid]

see bold text

 

[shortgrass]

I just think it's gross lol, using animal byproducts.

I can get better protein from soy or alfalfa and don't have to pay, what was that, 80 bucks? For 50 lbs? No thanks, I can't afford that. That's where the high cost of bagged feed comes in.

Not to mention, I don't know where these fish or cattle or pigs came from, and I'm pretty sure unless it's from my own cattle, it won't be organic.

They get their natural protein in the bugs and legumes they normally eat, so to me "natural" and "organic" would be sticking with what they eat "naturally"; I have never seen a chicken eat a cow lol, unless it's my leftover steak

 

[poorfarm]

Caution-There is a really gruesome account in one of the news stories copied here.
The incident I referred to happened in 1972. The killing of pet birds in the owner's house in front of the owner was protested in articles in bird fancier magazines including American CageBird Magazine. In addition to making house to house searches, government employees had roadblocks up and if you had your pet bird with you, you had a choice of going back wherever you started from no matter how far, or having it killed right there on the highway. At least they did it at the highway stops with with car exhaust. There were news stories about this with "little Bobby" crying while they killed his pet parakeet. For all I know somebody did get fired. The govt's own publications reference the bad publicity they got when killing pets in front of owners. Here's an excerpt from the USDA publication from the 1972 outbreak talking about not killing the birds in front of the owners anymore in response to those stories:

Obviously, a quarantine inspector could not tell if a
station wagon was carrying the family "budgie" out of
the quarantine zone unless the operator stopped in
response to the signs. Those that did were told that their
pet bird could not leave the quarantine zone. The owner
then had two options: (1) To return the bird to its
point of origin, which might be several hundred miles
away, or (2) to turn the bird over to Task Force
inspectors for destruction. Birds were usually put in a
plastic bag and the open end put over a car's exhaust
pipe. Death was quick and painless, but hardly aesthetic.

In the fall of 1972, several critical stories appeared in
the press on the operations of these quarantine check-
points. Partly because of this adverse publicity, pet birds
were no longer destroyed on the roadside in the presence
of their owner.

The same sort of thing was done in the 2003 Newcastle Disease outbreak, here's a news stories for you from that one, you can go check newspaper archives for more of same, start with Los Angeles Times:

Pet Birds Killed in California
Wednesday, April 16, 2003
People who keep parrots are as close to them as other pet owners are to their cats and dogs, so imagine how these pet owners feel when government officials, who are trying to control the spread of a deadly bird disease called Exotic Newcastle, come into their homes and kill their pet bird?often right in front of them. So far, the disease has killed 3.4 million birds in Southern California, many of them household parrots and parakeets. The state and federal government is talking to everyone from mail carriers to nosy neighbors, trying to identify the owners of sick birds. If a bird is suspected of having the disease, it's killed immediately.
Officials say they need to stop the disease before it wipes out the state's $3 billion poultry industry. It was first discovered in September in a backyard flock of chickens. Now are investigators going door to door, looking for sick birds.
Jeff Maxwell got nervous when he learned a task force agent wrote down his address and a description of his home, then entered it on a hand held computer with GPS. He says the task force has "carte blanche to kill any feathered thing on your property or your house regardless of whether it tests positive. The thought of somebody driving to my door and coming in and killing my bird in front of me is outrageous." He has a 22-year-old parrot.
The disease has also been discovered in Nevada and Arizona. People who move their birds out of quarantined areas could get a $25,000 fine. "Newcastle disease is the hoof-and-mouth disease of birds," says veterinarian Jack Shere. "People don't seem to grasp how important that is. You have to euthanize the few to protect the many." My note, 4 million birds were killed in 1972-73. That doesn't sound like a "few" to me.
The bulletin of the Parrot Society of Los Angeles says, "Be prepared not to allow a task force member entry into your home, no matter how polite they seem?If no law enforcement officer is with them, call 911 for help. Keep a video camera handy, with fresh film and batteries."
Lawyer William Dailey says, "If they were doing this to people's dogs and cats, there'd be such a scream down here it would be heard clear in Sacramento."
California poultry farmers Arie and Will Wilgenburg fed 30,000 live chickens into wood chippers because they were no longer able to produce eggs. They couldn't be turned into soup because the farms are under quarantine for Exotic Newcastle Disease.
District Attorney spokeswoman Gayle Stewart says the farmers asked the Agriculture Department for permission to use the wood chippers. She says, "Once they had permission we decided that they did not have any criminal intent."
Wayne Pacelle, of the Humane Society, says, "The act of feeding live chickens into a wood chipper is an extraordinarily callous and barbaric act and I can't imagine any person with a whit of common sense would use a wood chipper as a killing tool. No person with any experience in killing animals would sanction the use of this technique."

And here's another one for you:
Antelope Valley Press, CA

http://www.avpress.com/n/thsty3.hts
Petition calls for changes in fighting bird disease
This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press Thursday, April 10, 2003.
By HEATHER LAKE
Valley Press Staff Writer

The fury over how exotic Newcastle disease is being handled reached a higher tier last month when attorney William H. Dailey filed a petition calling for clearer ways to protect pet owners from violation of their constitutional rights.

Exotic Newcastle disease was discovered in Southern California in October, and the disease has spread to areas in Nevada and Arizona. The virus, which is deadly for poultry and other fowl, is believed to have arrived from Mexico. To date it has resulted in the destruction of more than 3 million birds.

Filed with the Superior Court of the State of California County of Los Angeles on behalf of private individuals, poultry organizations and animal-rights activists, the petition requests that Gov. Gray Davis rescind his Jan. 7 proclamation declaring a state of emergency and authorizing the "expeditious disposal of poultry."

The petition is filed against Davis, the United States Department of Agriculture, the California Department of Food and Agriculture and the disease task force.

Representatives of the CDFA are defending their actions, saying the petition has no merit and should be dismissed.

The petition asserts Davis arbitrarily proclaimed the state of emergency without supportive administrative records, and that based on the proclamation, the USDA issued a declaration of extraordinary emergency. Other assertions include:

that prior to the governor's proclamation, the CDFA formed a task force to eradicate by depopulation in order to protect the economic interests of the industrial poultry industry;

that no administrative records for the preparation of a writ of mandate based on public comment exist;

that the "alleged emergency" is based upon fabricated statistics and that no grounds exist for the hasty depopulation of pets without testing or consideration of alternative remedies;

that there is ongoing and deliberate disregard for clinical studies regarding vaccines and treatment and withholding of lab test results;

that the formation of the task force was "chaotic" and has perpetuated a threatening atmosphere of fear, force and violence for pet owners at the mercy of task force employees;

that the task force is committing "mass murder" of pets, companions and show birds not proven to be infected with the virus;

that the euthanization techniques claimed to be humane are not;

that the fatality rate was grossly inflated and that only 2% to 5% of destroyed birds were known to be infected; and

that sites are being labeled as infected without evidence, and that depopulation crews are not licensed or certified avian veterinarians.

 

[centrarchid]

I do not want to hijack thread. Articles I chased down do not appear reputable. They do appear designed to stir emotion.

 

[poorfarm]

Are you saying the ones I just gave you are not reputable?

 

[poorfarm]

because one of those is from the USDA's own publication, and the rest are from newspapers; one of which is the Los Angeles Times. I did not write these or make them up, or edit them in any way, and they are from 2003. You can find all of them in the newspapers' archives.