Recreating the American Game Bantam

[Silexian]

I have my first hatch off of Tyrant and the OEGBs. 8 of 9 hatched. I incubated them along with 12 jungle fowl.

The problem is that I can only tell a couple apart from the jungle fowl. One for sure as it has yellow legs. The rest all have blue or green legs. I’m sure its 8 of the smaller chicks but there is some size overlap between them and a few of the jungle fowl.

Until I can definitively tell them, the entire flock of 20 will have to be quarantined from my main flock. View attachment 2101824View attachment 2101826View attachment 2101827

You may want to introduce some Mini Beaton Hatch blood. They have the right color earlobes and leg color. Plus a high held full tail

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Time for an update. I have 3 generations of American game bantams on the farm. First, here are my best F1s, both falling under the ABA recognized color of Blue Red. The rooster was at 30oz in January. His tail has filled in more so he's going to have gained a bit. But he also needs to be dubbed so that should balance him out. He's also missing some neck feathers in the front above the breast where a hen had a habit of plucking them. I've removed her so they can grow back out.

The hen is right around 27-28oz.

As could have been predicted, the F2s are more problematic, where half of them can be predicted to get a double dose of either Cracker genes or OEGB genes. I'm about to do a mass culling of them. As where I raised many of the stags free range, only two survived and of those, only one is on track to be the right weight. This one:

This rooster is the son of the cull that was pretty but too big for the project and nephew to the blue red F1 rooster I kept. As of yesterday he was 28oz even, where the standard for a cockerel's weight is 27oz. He has a lot of filling out to do.

I have only weighed one F2 pullet that looked undersized and she was 20oz, the same size of a OEGB at the same age. I see about 3 that are undersized like that, and 2 of the F2s that might be on track.

If I can get 2 F2s that are tracking the standard, my plan is to breed the F2 cockerel above to the F1 hens (his mother and aunt) and the F1 rooster to the F2 pullets that meet the standard.

 

[Chicken Unboxing]

This is by far one of the most interesting posts I've seen so far on this site.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I’m seeking input.

Preliminarily I started going through pullets tonight to pick my keepers and culls. And I found something I didn’t expect. I’m not sure how I never noticed the size of this F2 pullet before. I’ve even handled this particular pullet and banded her with a zip tie when she was setting on a clutch.

She only weighs 15oz! She’s almost full grown, having already hatched a clutch. Her sister is just under 16oz, and another sister is just under 19oz. All three of these small sisters are long legged and not stubby legged like a show OEGB or serama. An adult serama hen is supposed to be around 14oz for comparison. So I’ve stumbled upon my teacup game bantam after all. Its a pity I didn’t shelter the F2 cockerals more. I think there was one or two that was about their sizes that didn’t make it free range.

Here’s the input I need; supposing I don’t have enough coop space to both breed to ABA standards for the AGB and create a teacup game bantam, which path should I take?

I think I’d get more personal enjoyment as pets having a flock of dove-sized game bantams that are neither OEGBs or seramas and more athletic than either. And yet I own no birds that conform to breed standards of perfection except these AGBs I’m working on. It would feel like a great accomplishment to have a line of show quality AGBs that I know I created and refined myself over many years.

So I’m not sure which path I want to take. Even if I expand my coop space, I don’t want to run multiple lines of each project. Right now I have two lines of AGBs divided between two coops. If I switch over to breeding for small size I’ll need to do the same. Probably my F1 cock to the F2 tiny pullets, then pick the smallest of their offspring to start a new line. Or the F1 cock to their F1 mother to see if I can get more F2 small ones, especially a smaller rooster. I’m kicking myself now because I know good and well I had a F2 cockerel that probably would have been perfect for this.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I think I know what I'm going to do. All of these "teacup" game bantams as I'm calling them at the moment came off of one hen, the blue F1. Their father was the oversized F1 that I culled. The F1 rooster I kept is their uncle. Both the F1 rooster I kept, the F1 mother, and F2 teacups are all blue breasted red. I'm going to eliminate the black breasted red line and combine the blues into one flock. The F1 blue can breed his F1 blue sister to see if they make any more teacup F2s, and the F1 can also breed his F2 teacup nieces. I can tell the eggs apart by size. The F1 blue lays large eggs, the teacups lay very tiny eggs in line with what you'd expect from their small sizes. I also have some F3s coming up I will evaluate. Both F1s conform to the ABA standards for the AGB. I'll spam large numbers of both F2s and F3s and of those I'll keep the best that meet AGB standards but I'll really be looking for the smallest of the small that still retains their long legs and athletic build. I don't want any stubby birds. I want to look like miniature American gamefowl but smaller than any recognized breed. So in a combined flock where I can tell the eggs apart, I can try to straddle both projects for a time.

 

[Amer]

View attachment 2697675View attachment 2697676

I’m seeking input.

Preliminarily I started going through pullets tonight to pick my keepers and culls. And I found something I didn’t expect. I’m not sure how I never noticed the size of this F2 pullet before. I’ve even handled this particular pullet and banded her with a zip tie when she was setting on a clutch.

She only weighs 15oz! She’s almost full grown, having already hatched a clutch. Her sister is just under 16oz, and another sister is just under 19oz. All three of these small sisters are long legged and not stubby legged like a show OEGB or serama. An adult serama hen is supposed to be around 14oz for comparison. So I’ve stumbled upon my teacup game bantam after all. Its a pity I didn’t shelter the F2 cockerals more. I think there was one or two that was about their sizes that didn’t make it free range.

Here’s the input I need; supposing I don’t have enough coop space to both breed to ABA standards for the AGB and create a teacup game bantam, which path should I take?

I think I’d get more personal enjoyment as pets having a flock of dove-sized game bantams that are neither OEGBs or seramas and more athletic than either. And yet I own no birds that conform to breed standards of perfection except these AGBs I’m working on. It would feel like a great accomplishment to have a line of show quality AGBs that I know I created and refined myself over many years.

So I’m not sure which path I want to take. Even if I expand my coop space, I don’t want to run multiple lines of each project. Right now I have two lines of AGBs divided between two coops. If I switch over to breeding for small size I’ll need to do the same. Probably my F1 cock to the F2 tiny pullets, then pick the smallest of their offspring to start a new line. Or the F1 cock to their F1 mother to see if I can get more F2 small ones, especially a smaller rooster. I’m kicking myself now because I know good and well I had a F2 cockerel that probably would have been perfect for this.

I think I know what I'm going to do. All of these "teacup" game bantams as I'm calling them at the moment came off of one hen, the blue F1. Their father was the oversized F1 that I culled. The F1 rooster I kept is their uncle. Both the F1 rooster I kept, the F1 mother, and F2 teacups are all blue breasted red. I'm going to eliminate the black breasted red line and combine the blues into one flock. The F1 blue can breed his F1 blue sister to see if they make any more teacup F2s, and the F1 can also breed his F2 teacup nieces. I can tell the eggs apart by size. The F1 blue lays large eggs, the teacups lay very tiny eggs in line with what you'd expect from their small sizes. I also have some F3s coming up I will evaluate. Both F1s conform to the ABA standards for the AGB. I'll spam large numbers of both F2s and F3s and of those I'll keep the best that meet AGB standards but I'll really be looking for the smallest of the small that still retains their long legs and athletic build. I don't want any stubby birds. I want to look like miniature American gamefowl but smaller than any recognized breed. So in a combined flock where I can tell the eggs apart, I can try to straddle both projects for a time.

Wow! Those are tiny! I wonder if they conform to the OEGB standard though. I know that’s not your goal but I'm pretty sure the OEGBs at shows are overly exaggerated considering OEGs should have “medium length” legs, long necks, etc. no matter what breeders seem to think. XD
But it does seem like a fun project. I'm not sure what defines an American Game from an OEG? Care to explain for me? I'm ready to learn.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Wow! Those are tiny! I wonder if they conform to the OEGB standard though. I know that’s not your goal but I'm pretty sure the OEGBs at shows are overly exaggerated considering OEGs should have “medium length” legs, long necks, etc. no matter what breeders seem to think. XD
But it does seem like a fun project. I'm not sure what defines an American Game from an OEG? Care to explain for me? I'm ready to learn.

Off the top of my head the ABA standards for the OEGB calls for a pullet to be 20oz and a hen to be 24oz. So this bird is significantly smaller than a OEGB. Dutch bantams are suppose to be around the size of 15oz but they have shorter legs. A mature American Serama hen should be 14oz by ABA standards.

The American game bantam is supposed to run about 5 ounces heavier than a OEGB, have longer legs, a longer back, a different tail angle, and different sickles, to name the most obvious differences. The end result is very much like a mini American game fowl, except that there is no American gamefowl in the background of AGB. The original AGBs was a junglefowl (or junglefowl hybrid) crossed to pit bantams. My line is a junglefowl hybrid crossed to farm quality OEGBs of nasty disposition.

In fact the OEGBs I used look more like AGBs. It seems to be a common trend that farm raised OEGBs not bred to show standards end up looking more athletic and more lOEGBs used to look 100 years ago. I like those older standards more than modern standards.

I still have access to the OEGBs I used. I’m thinking about visiting that farm with a set of scales and weighing the smallest ones. I’m betting two of them in particular weigh less than 20 oz. I never weighed them when I had them, never thinking that they may have been abnormally small for OEGBs.

 

[Amer]

It seems to be a common trend that farm raised OEGBs not bred to show standards end up looking more athletic and more lOEGBs used to look 100 years ago.

Maybe they’re breeding them right and everyone else is doing it wrong, despite the Standard not changing.
I'm pretty sure there's a night and day difference between the Standard and what is seen in shows. Also, thank you! That explains it!

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I'm been doing a lot of considering and here is what I have finally decided:

1. I'm going to continue to line breed for the American Game Bantam standards as defined by the American Bantam Association. I will keep both lines going that I have, breeding the chosen F2 stag to the 2 F1 hens and The F1 cock to the best 2 F2 pullets.I will also separately start a teacup line. I already have the hens for it, I just need a stag. I think I have the stag I'd need but he's got some growing to do.

2. I made two mistakes with my F2s and F3s;

a. I let my F2 cockerels free range too young and I kept the F2 pullets penned for too long. Of the 8 or 9 cockerels I had, a few of them that got picked off while free ranging were great specimens for the standards and one may have been a good individual for the tea cup line. I should have preserved those individuals better. Although I don't regret making survivability a selected trait, I should probably set the breed first then let the best survivors of the conforming birds be breeders in much later generations. With the pullets, I protected each one of them when I should have culled some earlier.

b. I let the F2s flock breed to make the F3s and now I don't know which F3s correspond to which F2s.

So feel that I done the F1s right and the F2s and F3s wrong, and I need to go back to the drawing board although I will keep the F3s I have to see if any contribute to the separate teacup line.

So my options are either to start over with breeding my F1s and trying for a new line of F2s, or working the best F2s into the existing F1s and starting a new group of F3s. I'll probably do the latter, and each breeding will be between either an individual cock and hen or no more than 2 hens at the time per cock. That will give me tighter genetic control. I'll probably make some diagrams to explain what I'm doing.

 

[Amer]

I'm been doing a lot of considering and here is what I have finally decided:

1. I'm going to continue to line breed for the American Game Bantam standards as defined by the American Bantam Association. I will keep both lines going that I have, breeding the chosen F2 stag to the 2 F1 hens and The F1 cock to the best 2 F2 pullets.I will also separately start a teacup line. I already have the hens for it, I just need a stag. I think I have the stag I'd need but he's got some growing to do.

2. I made two mistakes with my F2s and F3s;

a. I let my F2 cockerels free range too young and I kept the F2 pullets penned for too long. Of the 8 or 9 cockerels I had, a few of them that got picked off while free ranging were great specimens for the standards and one may have been a good individual for the tea cup line. I should have preserved those individuals better. Although I don't regret making survivability a selected trait, I should probably set the breed first then let the best survivors of the conforming birds be breeders in much later generations. With the pullets, I protected each one of them when I should have culled some earlier.

b. I let the F2s flock breed to make the F3s and now I don't know which F3s correspond to which F2s.

So feel that I done the F1s right and the F2s and F3s wrong, and I need to go back to the drawing board although I will keep the F3s I have to see if any contribute to the separate teacup line.

So my options are either to start over with breeding my F1s and trying for a new line of F2s, or working the best F2s into the existing F1s and starting a new group of F3s. I'll probably do the latter, and each breeding will be between either an individual cock and hen or no more than 2 hens at the time per cock. That will give me tighter genetic control. I'll probably make some diagrams to explain what I'm doing.

That’s interesting! Yeah, it’s hard for me to decide whether to free range birds too. With d’Anvers I don’t mind if they spent their lives inside and neither do they, but bantam Buckeyes love ranging, but I need to protect them to have any good ones.