Rhode Island Reds but look very different?

[meekohi]

When I bought these two the owner said they were both Rhode Island Reds, but now that they are older they look very different! What's the darker one?

 

[lizsmall99]

It looks to me as if that could be a RIR. Maybe the darker one just has a rose or cushion comb? It's not unusual for RIR to have rose combs so that would be my guess.

Good luck and maybe someone can answer your question a little more precisely!

-Liz

 

[Michael OShay]

Both of them are Production Reds. Technically speaking, their is very little difference between hatchery quality RIRs, hatchery quality New Hampshires, and Production Reds as hatcheries are more interested in egg production than they are in preserving SOP standards. It their PRs are a darker shade of red (closer to mahogany), the hatcheries typically market them as RIRs. If they are a light shade of red (closer to chestnut), they market them as NHs. If their red shade is somewhere down the middle or very uneven, they market them as Production Reds. Both of your birds are dark enough that the hatchery probably marketed them as RIRs. How old are your birds. Unless the lighter one with the large red comb and wattles is at least 14 weeks old, it is a cockerel. The darker one is definitely a pullet.

 

[meekohi]

The person I purchased them from was very friendly and a small backyard farm. They said the hens should start laying in July -- I have seen one egg (weird, soft egg) so far but am staying patient for now. I assume that means the chickens are 6-7 months old at this point? The lighter one with the large red comb and wattles (Florence) seems the most mellow of all of them and spends a lot of time in the nest box, so I am guessing she's a hen (although I have zero experience with this so who knows).

Here is a photo of right after I got them:

 

[junebuggena]

They look like they were about 10 weeks old when you got them. The dark one could be a pure Rhode Island Red. The lighter red one looks like a New Hampshire Red or Production Red. If they were both sold to you as the same breed, then the breeder isn't breeding to the standard.

 

[Michael OShay]

They look like they were about 10 weeks old when you got them. The dark one could be a pure Rhode Island Red. The lighter red one looks like a New Hampshire Red or Production Red. If they were both sold to you as the same breed, then the breeder isn't breeding to the standard.

Even the darker one lacks the deep body and profuse black tail feathers of a heritage Rhode Island Red. They both look to me like different red shades of Production Reds. I'm thinking the owner got his original stock from a hatchery and not from a reputable breeder of heritage RIRs.

 

[meekohi]

Thanks for the tips! I got them from some random guy on a farm I found on craigslist, so expectation for accuracy was not very high to begin with

 

[Bill Matthews]

Was wondering where you got the information to support such sweeping and questionable generalizations?..........

Both of them are Production Reds. Technically speaking, their is very little difference between hatchery quality RIRs, hatchery quality New Hampshires, and Production Reds as hatcheries are more interested in egg production than they are in preserving SOP standards. It their PRs are a darker shade of red (closer to mahogany), the hatcheries typically market them as RIRs. If they are a light shade of red (closer to chestnut), they market them as NHs. If their red shade is somewhere down the middle or very uneven, they market them as Production Reds. Both of your birds are dark enough that the hatchery probably marketed them as RIRs. How old are your birds. Unless the lighter one with the large red comb and wattles is at least 14 weeks old, it is a cockerel. The darker one is definitely a pullet.

Just to give one among several examples.....Cackle Hatchery New Hampshires and Rhode Island Reds look nothing alike..........The owners of that hatchery say that their flocks date back to the 1930's and that even though both breeds have been "commercialized" neither has been crossed with other breeds.....Their Cherry Eggers and Production Reds look about as one would expect since they cross their NHS and RIRS.........Admittedly, hatchery stock is not of the same quality as Exhibition/Heritage birds, but the idea that all hatcheries sell low quality, crossbred junk is far from the truth and serves no useful purpose, that I can see, and only turns off a large segment of poultry raisers who are not as dogmatic as some breed "purists.".........The implication that hatchery operators are nothing but a bunch of shysters is also very unfortunate from an industry/hobby standpoint since nothing could be farther from the truth......

 

[junebuggena]

Was wondering where you got the information to support such sweeping and questionable generalizations?..........
Just to give one among several examples.....Cackle Hatchery New Hampshires and Rhode Island Reds look nothing alike..........The owners of that hatchery say that their flocks date back to the 1930's and that even though both breeds have been "commercialized" neither has been crossed with other breeds.....Their Cherry Eggers and Production Reds look about as one would expect since they cross their NHS and RIRS.........Admittedly, hatchery stock is not of the same quality as Exhibition/Heritage birds, but the idea that all hatcheries sell low quality, crossbred junk is far from the truth and serves no useful purpose, that I can see, and only turns off a large segment of poultry raisers who are not as dogmatic as some breed "purists.".........The implication that hatchery operators are nothing but a bunch of shysters is also very unfortunate from an industry/hobby standpoint since nothing could be farther from the truth......

Cackle is the only big hatchery, that has actual photos and videos of their stock on their website. They are actually willing to show you what's in their breeding pens. The same can't be said for other hatcheries.

 

[Cowgirl71]

First, to the OP........... Technically, they're both Production Reds. The darker pullet looks more Rhode Island Red in color than the lighter pullet. The lighter looks more New Hampshire in color.

Was wondering where you got the information to support such sweeping and questionable generalizations?..........

 
Both of them are Production Reds. Technically speaking, their is very little difference between hatchery quality RIRs, hatchery quality New Hampshires, and Production Reds as hatcheries are more interested in egg production than they are in preserving SOP standards. It their PRs are a darker shade of red (closer to mahogany), the hatcheries typically market them as RIRs. If they are a light shade of red (closer to chestnut), they market them as NHs. If their red shade is somewhere down the middle or very uneven, they market them as Production Reds. Both of your birds are dark enough that the hatchery probably marketed them as RIRs. How old are your birds. Unless the lighter one with the large red comb and wattles is at least 14 weeks old, it is a cockerel. The darker one is definitely a pullet.

Just to give one among several examples.....Cackle Hatchery New Hampshires and Rhode Island Reds look nothing alike..........The owners of that hatchery say that their flocks date back to the 1930's and that even though both breeds have been "commercialized" neither has been crossed with other breeds.....Their Cherry Eggers and Production Reds look about as one would expect since they cross their NHS and RIRS.........Admittedly, hatchery stock is not of the same quality as Exhibition/Heritage birds, but the idea that all hatcheries sell low quality, crossbred junk is far from the truth and serves no useful purpose, that I can see, and only turns off a large segment of poultry raisers who are not as dogmatic as some breed "purists.".........The implication that hatchery operators are nothing but a bunch of shysters is also very unfortunate from an industry/hobby standpoint since nothing could be farther from the truth......

I'd like to preface this by saying that I really like hatchery birds. They're cheap and readily available, can be purchased sexed, and are bred to lay, and lay well. I keep chickens for eggs. I have no interest in showing. I just want pretty birds that resemble their breed and possess the traits of that breed (broodiness, comb type, temperament, egg color, etc.), but most of all lay very well, that's a hen's purpose. A breeder's birds may do better in the show ring, but a hatchery bird will put more eggs on the table, which to me, is what matters. IMO, I think the question of which bird is the "better quality," is just that, a legitimate question.

I have had and have seen birds from Cackle, and overall have been fairly impressed, for a hatchery. I have never seen their RIRs or NHRs, but saw some Cherry Eggers and they are to date the prettiest "red" birds I've seen, with very rich dark coloring and beautiful dark green spangles in the hackle feathers, and very uniform. I certainly wasn't expecting that from a Production bird. My main disappointment was 5 Golden Laced Wyandotte pullets. 3 had rose combs and 2 had single combs. That is definite evidence of recent crossbreeding, IMO. I have also done some crossbreeding with a Cackle Buff Orpington rooster. Crossed with Barred Rock hens, I got pullets with white, yellow, green, and blue legs. I loved all the colors, but researched it, because a white shanked rooster crossed with a yellow shanked hen should give white shanked offspring, where did the whole rainbow of colors come from?! What I found said that if the white-shanked rooster is impure for leg color, and is crossed with a yellow shanked hen, you will get white shanked cockerels and white, yellow, green, and blue shanked pullets. Yep, bingo, that's what I had. So, again, evidence that their Buff Orps have crossbreeding in them.

I've had lots of birds from McMurray, and have been overall very happy with them. Several of the Rhode Island Reds had some white to their earlobes, evidence of crossbreeding with a white-lobed breed, most likely Leghorn. But they were/are otherwise attractive birds that lay extremely well, and the cockerels also made good meat birds, and so I really like them.

My birds from Ideal Poultry I have overall been very disappointed with. My opinion of Ideal is that they seem to definitely be about quantity, not quality. The Buff Orps are a very washed out pale yellow, did not go broody when practically every other hen I have did, and are also the most aggressive at the feeder to the other hens, rather than being near the bottom of the pecking order like a real Buff Orp would be. Their Australorps are a joke. I got six. One is huge and looks very Jersey Giant-ish. One has a tail that nearly touches the back of her head, my guess is they used Australorps to improve the lay rate of their Langshans, and any birds that didn't have feathered legs went back into the Australorp breeding pen. The other four, including one that's much smaller than the other five, all have a rusty-red sheen in the right lighting, rather than a metallic green and purple sheen like they're supposed to have (and my McMurray Aussies did/do), so there is no doubt in my mind that some Production Red was crossed in at some point recently. The Barred Rocks from them I've been overall happy with, they're excellent layers, and mothers. Definitely on the small side, and several have had quite large combs, so I have wondered if they possibly crossed in some California Grey at some point. But they are excellent layers and have good calm temperaments (not Mediterranean), and for the most part look like a Barred Rock, so I'm happy with them.

You seem to take offense to the implication that hatcheries crossbreed. I believe they all do, to varying degrees, to improve the lay rate and vigor of the chicks. I have hatched several hundred chicks and can tell you that I've noticed a very noticeable increase in hatch rates and vigor of the crossbred chicks compared to purebreds. It doesn't take a genius to guess that the hatcheries have noticed the same thing. Is crossbreeding okay? In my opinion, yes. I'm a big advocate of crossbreeding, actually. Crossbreds commonly outperform purebreds, in all but the show ring. What I don't like is birds being sold as purebreds that don't possess some key features of their breed (e.g. Ideal Poultry's BOs and BAs, and Cackle's GLWs). If you want to breed some Leghorn in to increase lay rate and add hybrid vigor, I say great, just make sure to select back towards the traits and appearance of your breed a few generations before marketing the chicks as that breed.

Also, Michael is not a purebred SOP show-quality snob, like you seem to think and take offense to. Not at all. He's said several times that his favorite hens are Black Sexlinks, which aren't exactly recognized by the SOP.