Rooster among the hens feed question

[3KillerBs]

It is. I'm experimenting with all flock and oystershell in one grouo, but that extra 2 dollars (not including the Oystershell cost at all) really adds up when you go through the bag in less than a week.

Are you comparing apples to apples with feed that has the same composition other than the presence or absence of calcium?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Are you comparing apples to apples with feed that has the same composition other than the presence or absence of calcium?

No. I have 16% layer crumble or 17% all flock pellets. The birds eat the same amount of either, but the 17% is 2 dollars a bag more. Obviously when I move the last 14 males out, they'll eat less as a whole, but so far I'm just not convinced it's the holy grail others insist it is

 

[Brooks_]

No. I have 16% layer crumble or 17% all flock pellets. The birds eat the same amount of either, but the 17% is 2 dollars a bag more. Obviously when I move the last 14 males out, they'll eat less as a whole, but so far I'm just not convinced it's the holy grail others insist it is

While not a Holy Grail, it is much easier for me. I have a small flock.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I suppose this is one of the debates that will never end.

I think you are exactly right. The only legitimate study I've seen on roosters eating Layer was a Canadian study from several years ago and I do not have a link. They were fed a diet where the only thing they ate was a feed with the calcium equivalent of Layer. The conclusion was if the only thing the roosters eat is layer then some can develop internal problems.

There are some concepts included in that that some people find hard to understand. If Layer is not the only thing they eat then the amount of calcium they eat in a day can be reduced, maybe substantially. It's not how much calcium is in one bite, it's how many total grams of calcium they eat in a day, and even that is sort of averaged over several days. If they forage or you feed low-calcium treats then the total amount of calcium they eat in a day could be substantially less. The same thing is true with growing chicks. If a broody keeps them out most of the day foraging instead if them only eating Layer feed the total amount of calcium they eat in a day may not be that much, even if the only chicken feed available is Layer.

The other part of this is that "some" develop problems. Some doesn't mean each and every one without fail 100% of the time. That's a concept some people seem to have a problem with.

The way they did that study was not just to see which ones fell over dead. Of course they tracked that and mortality was slightly higher or some were not as thrifty as the control group. As I remember a few more had fertility issues. But most did not have any symptoms you could observe. They cut some of them open to look at the internal organs. On "some" of those roosters internal organs were damaged. That "might" make them more susceptible to problems further down the road, maybe years down the road, even if it was not enough to immediately cause problems.

An example of this is that I have liver damage after having hepatitis over 3 decades ago. There are certain medicines my doctors will not prescribe for me. With some medicines they watch liver panels pretty closely. There are certain things I should not consume, especially in quantity. It's not that I'm going to immediately die if I do but the potential for life changing events are there. You cannot tell that I have liver damage just by looking at me, but it is there. It's something I want to manage.

As I have growing chicks or other non-laying chickens (a rooster, broody hens, molting hens) with the flock all the time I feed a low calcium feed to all of them with oyster shell on the side for the hens that need it for shells. With the way mine forage and the kitchen scraps, stuff from the garden and the orchard they get I'd probably be OK feeding Layer but I never do. To me the worry free option is to not feed Layer.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

My grandpa keeps his roos until the day they die unless they are buttheads and he has had some before that have lived to their full extent eating layer feed!

When his roosters died, did he have them necropsied to determine the cause, find out how many of the kidney segments were atrophied? Or did he just shrug and say "oh well".

Some lines of some breeds tolerate extremely high mineral levels, others do not. But urolithiasis and visceral gout from excess calcium is well documented, even in pre lay pullets on egg farms.
https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/avian-urolithiasis-visceral-gout-an-overview

 

[ChickenCanoe]

For around 10 years, we fed everyone layer feed when they were old enough to swallow pellets instead of crumble. Out of all that time, we had maybe one bird start to show problems from the extra calcium (still not 100 percent sure since it was also possible this issue was frostbite). My males lived long lived (several are now hitting 6+ and I culled an 8 year old last spring because he turned agressive).

As to the flock ratio, if they are not necessarily needing every egg to be fertile, it doesn't matter. Plus it's possible that male they own would bareback hens if they had fewer or may not let another male near them. He doesn't care about a so called ratio, the hens that he can see and get to are his, that it.

What are the symptoms you think a chicken with urolithiasis has?

 

[Brooks_]

What are the symptoms you think a chicken with urolithiasis has?

Pick me!































No Idea and not gonna find out.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

What are the symptoms you think a chicken with urolithiasis has?

I don't know, but I'm going to go on a limb and say I wouldn't know which ones had it without cutting them open.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Chickens have 2 kidneys with 3 segments each. Damage is irreversible. As long as they have 2 functioning segments, most show no symptoms and can even continue to lay normally. But once one of the remaining segments fails, the chicken will die within 24 hours and unless they are necropsied as you say, no one knows why they die. I'll wager 90% of chicken keepers never have that necropsy and they just say, they don't know why they died or blame something else.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Chickens have 2 kidneys with 3 segments each. Damage is irreversible. As long as they have 2 functioning segments, most show no symptoms and can even continue to lay normally. But once one of the remaining segments fails, the chicken will die within 24 hours and unless they are necropsied as you say, no one knows why they die. I'll wager 90% of chicken keepers never have that necropsy and they just say, they don't know why they died or blame something else.

Ever since our poisoning incident (long story, thought it was mereks, turns out they got into rat poison the neighbors decided to compost), we look at all birds that we cull or find dead. Sure, we don't spend 50$+ to have them examined professionally, but we never find anything wrong in them besides obvious issues like a crossed beak, or a bad leg. Although, we did have a bantam cockerel with gigantic you-know-whats once.