Roosters to hens ratio

[BigBlueHen53]

@VictoriaTemple wrote: What I have a problem with is the horrifyingly widespread practice of male-specific genocide that is embraced in home flocks, breeders, hatcheries, industrial agriculture, and everywhere chickens reproduce for the selfish convenience of their keepers.

This may get me in loads of trouble and surely show my ignorance, but I have to ask. How is this genocide? How is it selfish? In order to make more chickens, breeders have to breed and hatcheries have to hatch. And they have no way of controlling or knowing the genders of the chicks that will be produced. So, all things being equal, they are going to produce on average about 50% roosters. And conventional wisdom is that one rooster can service about ten hens for the purpose of reproduction and protection, which means that nine out of ten roosters are socially and genetically superfluous, as is common in the animal world. In nature, bachelor animals get driven away from the pride, herd or flock to live in bachelor groups or individually unless or until they can command their own group of females. With chickens, the surplus roosters have to be supported by a human the rest of their lives, or culled. This is not murder, it's only practical. Not many home farmers or commercial concerns could remain financially viable if they tried to support excess roosters indefinitely. Culling them is the only sensible option. And choosing the most sociable ones is only logical. This is my thinking, anyway. I could be wrong.

 

[cmom]

@BigBlueHen53, I agree with you totally...

 

[Shadrach]

@VictoriaTemple wrote: What I have a problem with is the horrifyingly widespread practice of male-specific genocide that is embraced in home flocks, breeders, hatcheries, industrial agriculture, and everywhere chickens reproduce for the selfish convenience of their keepers.

This may get me in loads of trouble and surely show my ignorance, but I have to ask. How is this genocide? How is it selfish? In order to make more chickens, breeders have to breed and hatcheries have to hatch. And they have no way of controlling or knowing the genders of the chicks that will be produced. So, all things being equal, they are going to produce on average about 50% roosters. And conventional wisdom is that one rooster can service about ten hens for the purpose of reproduction and protection, which means that nine out of ten roosters are socially and genetically superfluous, as is common in the animal world. In nature, bachelor animals get driven away from the pride, herd or flock to live in bachelor groups or individually unless or until they can command their own group of females. With chickens, the surplus roosters have to be supported by a human the rest of their lives, or culled. This is not murder, it's only practical. Not many home farmers or commercial concerns could remain financially viable if they tried to support excess roosters indefinitely. Culling them is the only sensible option. And choosing the most sociable ones is only logical. This is my thinking, anyway. I could be wrong.

It all reads well if you read it fast enough.
Firstly many are assuming that chickens are flock animals and the natural order is one rooster with a group of hens and the poor junior roosters living alone or in groups somewhere or other. That doesn't seem to be the case with studies on jungle fowl, or studies on feral chicken populations, so this is a human notion of how things are that isn't born out by the evidence.
Once you've got that out of the way the rest sort of falls apart barring the convenience aspect to humans.
It is the same with hens being slaghterd at two years old. While the breeds bred for human convenience lay less eggs after about tow years old they don't stop laying. It's just that it is considered by some to be uneconomic to keep them after this age. That could be changed by an economic model that is more suitable to the hens natural laying abilities. Yes it would mean eggs became more expensive.
There comes a point where one has to make a decision whether one thinks the humans needs come before the creatures welfare, or the other way around.

 

[The Kooky Kiwi]

I understand the underlying intention of VictoriaTemples comments and to some degree I am sympathetic to that idea. However I also understand the practicalities of breeding/keeping chickens and how behaviour and purpose influences peoples decisions.

The honest natural truth is that roosters will often fight.. to keep them together in a confined place where fighting is likely to occur and they cannot avoid each other is just another form of cruelty in my mind - so why go there?

For some people, electing not to buy roosters is an option. For other people, culling is the necessary way to manage their flock.

Personally I have found that young roosters raised together tend to cohabitate relatively well. If you remove the temptation of the hens by forming a bachelor group then they are far more accepting of each other as company into adulthood. I am fortunate that I have access to land that is very suitable for free ranging chickens. Each year I raise all my chicks (including roosters) to about six months old then I separate out my unwanted roosters to form a bachelor group and release them onto the runoff block. They exist quite happily there.. some stay as one group.. others wander off in smaller groups.. but they decide for themselves how to be and they have the room to do so. And for my own pleasure.. I get to see a whole bunch of colourful little characters strolling around my paddocks Win/Win!

Edit: PS.. I've never needed to cull a rooster because he's a "Jerk" because I'm a bigger "Jerk" and they tend to respect that LOL

 

[Shadrach]

Just as a general comment.
This is the way Europe is going currently.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915In the UK, assuming egg farms can turn a profit, this is the next step in improving the lot of the poor production hen.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/true-free-ranging.1343242/The science option for those unable or unwilling to adapt is the research into sex determining the egg. I'm not a supporter of this option.
I think there alternative solutions to the 'rooster problem'. It's about having the will to make them economically viable, but even that may change and the focus change to the welfare of the animal.

 

[VictoriaTemple]

Question about the article: how much slower do male meat breed chickens grow than females? I of course knew that the egg industry euthanizes male chicks by the billions, but had no idea that meat producers ALSO raise exclusively female birds!!

Soap box warning, proceed with caution...

Considering how much meat and eggs are thrown away in our industrialized “civilized” society, can’t we afford a little less production? The poultry mega-farms are always crying they’re broke, threatening us with higher food prices if we don’t subsidize their operations. Nothing increases costs and lowers prices like excessive production. Keep the boys, raise what you need, don’t raise what you can’t feed. No need for egg-sexing, plan appropriately for cockerels before they hatch. God help us, PLEASE!

 

[Shadrach]

Question about the article: how much slower do male meat breed chickens grow than females? I of course knew that the egg industry euthanizes male chicks by the billions, but had no idea that meat producers ALSO raise exclusively female birds!!

Soap box warning, proceed with caution...

Considering how much meat and eggs are thrown away in our industrialized “civilized” society, can’t we afford a little less production? The poultry mega-farms are always crying they’re broke, threatening us with higher food prices if we don’t subsidize their operations. Nothing increases costs and lowers prices like excessive production. Keep the boys, raise what you need, don’t raise what you can’t feed. No need for egg-sexing, plan appropriately for cockerels before they hatch. God help us, PLEASE!

It's the out of max production band that the females get sent to the other food industries.
I think growth rate is going to be largely dependent on breed and diet of course.
For example, the bantam males tend to lag behind the females here in achieving final weight initially and seem to have a filling out burst at around 14 to 20 months. The Marans seemed to grow at a more equal rate.
I think we in the industrialised West could afford to pay more for our eggs. Part of the problem is other countries are following the intensive production model we are now trying (I think it's fair to think that the majority here are in favour of better treatment) to do away with.
For many of these so called third world countires in particular, their traditional chicken keeping model is better for the chicken. Having chickens foraging in back yards and running around the villages is in my view preferable to having them caged in giant barns.

Edit.
Most of the village flocks I've seen have roosters and yes they fight. Also, hens sitting is encouraged because that's more chickens. Males for meat and the females for eggs.

 

[NatJ]

Question about the article: how much slower do male meat breed chickens grow than females? I of course knew that the egg industry euthanizes male chicks by the billions, but had no idea that meat producers ALSO raise exclusively female birds!!

This article?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915
Males grow faster than females, when they're the same kind.
The male chicks that are "not wanted for meat or eggs" are the egg-type males. They will never lay eggs (being male), and do not grow fast enough or large enough to be wanted for meat.

The meat industry definitely DOES raise male chicks. I think they raise the females too, but I'm positive about the males because I've found occasional testicles inside store-bought chickens.

 

[jolenesdad]

the meat industry raises male and female. Males grow larger, faster than females.

a massive majority of red broilers are raised for ethnic markets and dishes and those are required to be females, so many smaller producers actually raise exclusively male birds if they’re going to raise a freedom ranger - type.

 

[jolenesdad]

@Shadrach do you know if jungle fowl roosters in a 1:1 ratio breed the hens when they are not in lay? I wonder if that has anything to do with being able to handle a 1:1 ratio that seems fairly difficult to maintain with most modern setups and modern breeds.