Sdwd

[PepsNick]

Wellllllll, I have been reading through the Delaware thread. Now on page 74. This is for Beth, LH, Kathy and Cyn:

I saw "superchick" and "midge". These are smaller, and have crooked toes, and slow growing. Are these dwarfs? I am doing a lot of reading on the dwarfing gene, because it is ver interesting to me. What I have read is only me guessing- the gene hasn't even been brought up, yet. Did you guys figure this out? Oh, LH, you had one, too, correct? Wasn't that Fattie? I remember someone telling me that. To me, she doesn't look like a dwarf. Was she producing dwarf chicks?

Thank you! I'm trying to figure all this out.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote:
Superchick was not a dwarf, Midge was. No, LH didn't have a dwarf--Fattie is a carrier of two dwarf genes so she can't be reproduced. The vet who tested her said she would most likely produce all dwarfs, didn't he, LH?


LH, here is Adonis with Molly. That is the extent of his feathering, but he and Molly have to go to the Firetower with Junebug and Sarah within a few days, no matter what. They hate the camera!

 

[PepsNick]

Quote:
Superchick was not a dwarf, Midge was. No, LH didn't have a dwarf--Fattie is a carrier of two dwarf genes so she can't be reproduced. She is a chunky girl.

Oh, okay. Thanks. And that other one of Kathy's... Who preened herself to being almost bald?

Well, 101 pages of the Del thread, about 850 more to go? LOL.

I will get pictures of mine ranging tomorrow, and of the mystery chick. Night, everyone.

 

[speckledhen]

G'nite, Nick.

 

[Cetawin]

Oh my Adonis cannot go out like that....knit him a sweater Cyn, that boy has no feathers. LOL Then Knockout...is it worth buying anymore? If so, I am still sending you monies to bring some with you. If you think it is not, let me know

Nick, Cyn is right. Fattie does not look like a dwarf because she is not a dwarf but she carries 2 dwarf genes.

My former vet in Oregon has been studying the dwarf gene in poultry and when he came out for a farm visit, I spoke to him about Cannonball who is very small for a Dellie and thinking she might be a dwarf, of the kind without the deformaties, he took blood samples from both Cannonball and Fattie for DNA sequencing and gene study. Cannonball is fine and dandy but Fattie has 2 dwarf genes. As it turns out, his studies were showing that for a dwarf to be produced, it did not require each parent having the gene, a single parent can pass it and pass more than one dwarf gene. As was the case with Fattie.

By process of elimination, the combination of Isaac and Kira was throwing dwarfs...there were several dwarfs thrown during that time and before Cynthia got her new hens...Had it been Ike with the gene, and my vet being correct, then all of the hens at that time would have thrown dwarfs here and there. But only Kira was throwing them and at least one of her offspring, Fattie, was given 2 dwarf genes. So somewhere in Kira's line there is a dwarf gene carrier. and if memory serves me correctly, she and Ike are from different lines.

He is doing a 5 and 10 year closed study with 50 different pairs and different breeds. Once those studies is complete, his findings will be turned in and published. He was originally going to publish paper on his findings, including Fattie but after consideration and talking with experts and the Vet Boards, he decided to do the closed studies.

He also explained that breeds that were "made" and died out and "re-made", throws genetics into a tailspin because the birds used originally to create the breed are no more so in remaking a breed, you are getting a completely different genetic combination and pairing. The lines over the years have changed so much due in part to piss poor breeding, adding other breeds to try to 'improve' the lines and so forth, that todays Delaware are nothing like the Delaware of the early 1900s. It is sort of like playing genetic roulette. It is hard to recreate what you once destroyed and expect the same results. Because the Delaware were no more, they were extinct as a breed until someone read about them and how they were made and started the project over again with birds 40+ generations out. He makes perfect sense to me...man often destroys something and screws up trying to correct it.

But he advised against breeding Fattie because all of her offspring will be dwarfs or carry the dwarf gene. The carriers would be the real problem because they would continually pass on the dwarf gene and then you have the gene spreading from flock to flock. So, I would never breed Delaware because of that....I only have her and Cannonball. If I did breed Fattie, the gene would stay in my laying flock because I put all of her eggs in the "eating" basket and do not give them away or sell them. The Del cross Sarah hatched was from Cannonball which I grabbed thinking it was my Orp, Maya's egg (her egg and Cannonball's are almost identical in color, size and etc) and it is a HUGE baby.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
You mention Delawares in early 1900s...... Delawares were first created in 1940 by George Ellis. Is your vet saying that more have recreated them since then? If so, I wonder who and where. This is interesting to me. They were extinct and recreated? I have never heard of this before and would like to know more about it.

I wonder which dwarfing genes your vet is studying, Ladyhawk. I know of 5 of them. The td gene is the ONLY one of the five that causes the deformities we have in this line of Delawares. It is autosomal recessive, which means BOTH parents have to be carriers and pass it on to the offspring.

dw Recessive. Males are reduced in size by about 43%, females by 26-32%. Multiple alleles have been proposed. dw is responsible for some beneficial effects. dw homozygotes are more resistant to Marek's Disease and spirochetosis, fewer laying accidents, more aggressive immune response. Abnormal eggs are suppressed (soft-shelled, double yolks). Dwarfism, dw, does not effect mortality but does postpone the onset of lay in pullets up to two weeks. Although egg number and mass are slightly decreased by dw, feed efficiency (feed consumption per egg layed) in laying stocks is usually increased 13-25%.

dwB Recessive but shows a dose effect; 'bantam' gene. Females reduced in size by 5-11% and males by about 5% in heterozygotes and 14% in homozygotes. Allelic with dw.

dwM MacDonald dwarf. Reduces body weight by 13.5% and shank length by 9%. Allelic with dw.

Dw+ Wild-type gene. Lack of dwarfing alleles. Allows 'normal' size to develop.

td thyrogenous dwarfism. Autosomal recessive. Lethal or semi-lethal gene. Chicks appeared normal at hatch, but decisive differences began to appear by three weeks of age. Legs were mych shorter in proportion to body size, and the outer toes turned outward and backward. Their heads were wider in the eye region and their beaks were parrot-like. Their tails were carried on a level with the middle of the body with tail feathers directed backward and downward. These dwarfs show a general retardation of growth which is recognizable at 2 to 4 weeks of age. The outer toe is curled backward, and this is sometimes evident at hatching. The skull is broad and high in relation to its length, and the upper beak is bent downward. The tissues around the eyes appear swollen. The tongue is shortened and swollen. The legs are shortened, more so in the tarso-metatarsus than in the femur and tibio-tarsus. The sacrum is disproportionately small and high, so that the tail seems abnormally high on the body. There is almost no endochondral bone in the shaft of the long bones.

 

[speckledhen]

Kathy, you'd have to ask the vet about his study, I'd think.

 

[rancher hicks]

Quote:
You mention Delawares in early 1900s...... Delawares were first created in 1940 by George Ellis. Is your vet saying that more have recreated them since then? If so, I wonder who and where. This is interesting to me. They were extinct and recreated? I have never heard of this before and would like to know more about it.

I wonder which dwarfing genes your vet is studying, Ladyhawk. I know of 5 of them. The td gene is the ONLY one of the five that causes the deformities we have in this line of Delawares. It is autosomal recessive, which means BOTH parents have to be carriers and pass it on to the offspring.

dw Recessive. Males are reduced in size by about 43%, females by 26-32%. Multiple alleles have been proposed. dw is responsible for some beneficial effects. dw homozygotes are more resistant to Marek's Disease and spirochetosis, fewer laying accidents, more aggressive immune response. Abnormal eggs are suppressed (soft-shelled, double yolks). Dwarfism, dw, does not effect mortality but does postpone the onset of lay in pullets up to two weeks. Although egg number and mass are slightly decreased by dw, feed efficiency (feed consumption per egg layed) in laying stocks is usually increased 13-25%.

dwB Recessive but shows a dose effect; 'bantam' gene. Females reduced in size by 5-11% and males by about 5% in heterozygotes and 14% in homozygotes. Allelic with dw.

dwM MacDonald dwarf. Reduces body weight by 13.5% and shank length by 9%. Allelic with dw.

Dw+ Wild-type gene. Lack of dwarfing alleles. Allows 'normal' size to develop.

td thyrogenous dwarfism. Autosomal recessive. Lethal or semi-lethal gene. Chicks appeared normal at hatch, but decisive differences began to appear by three weeks of age. Legs were mych shorter in proportion to body size, and the outer toes turned outward and backward. Their heads were wider in the eye region and their beaks were parrot-like. Their tails were carried on a level with the middle of the body with tail feathers directed backward and downward. These dwarfs show a general retardation of growth which is recognizable at 2 to 4 weeks of age. The outer toe is curled backward, and this is sometimes evident at hatching. The skull is broad and high in relation to its length, and the upper beak is bent downward. The tissues around the eyes appear swollen. The tongue is shortened and swollen. The legs are shortened, more so in the tarso-metatarsus than in the femur and tibio-tarsus. The sacrum is disproportionately small and high, so that the tail seems abnormally high on the body. There is almost no endochondral bone in the shaft of the long bones.

Of course this would catch my eye. This is the first I've read that Delaware were extinct and recreated. Where can I get proof of this information? Can they tell genetically whether a bird is a recreation or from the original lines?

I do have a question for Cyn. I have the roo and the hen from your eggs. Do either of these carry the dwarf gene?

 

[kathyinmo]

I would love to talk to him, Cyn! I am thinking ..... wheels are turning ..... I am thinking this line of Delawares could also be carrying the dw and dwM genes, in addition to the td gene. The reason I am thinking this is because of the smaller birds that have been produced, besides the deformed ones. I am thinking these 2 facts are related to 2 different dwarfing genes in the stock. Very interesting to me.

 

[rancher hicks]

Quote:
I have to say that even though I was at the ALBC conference they were not very helpful with my questions about the Delaware breed. Further any "experts" they directed me to were also unresponsive. Perhaps too uneducated to use a computer. It's very annoying for this old man to see my counter parts so ignorant or reluctant to return an e-mail if this breed is of any concern at all. I see no point in having spent money for a web page if they are not going to respond to e-mails.

I also was annoyed that the Delaware breed was left off the list of rare breeds high lighted in the past issue of Hobby Farms magazine.

Anyone attempting to work with this breed should be aware that they are the hardest to work with in my opinion due to the feather pattern and type issues. When you work with some such as the Buckeye there is little to worry about in the way of color since you only have one.