Seeking Botulism Information Please

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

I’m devastated to report that we lost our two female Muscovies, Spirit(Duck) and Madeline over the weekend. I’d posted early Saturday morning that they weren’t doing well and hoping for some advice. We now know they’d had botulism, a disease I was previously unaware of but have come to learn that it is common in our area which is a hot, tropical, rainy climate. While I understand some things may have been beyond our control, I’m wrestling with grief and also guilt over not being aware of this illness and possibly missing something we might have had control over. Although I thought I was on top of fresh food and water maybe it had spoiled and I didn’t realize it or missed something else? If I had known the dangers of hot weather, flies, and standing water I’d have brought them indoor full time until the weather changed. I am now also questioning whether we brought them to the right place for care although at the time it seemed so. We can’t bring our sweet girls back but feel the best way to honor them is to learn a much as we can about botulism so that we can be better ‘Duck parents’ in the future. These are just some of the questions we have...signs of spoiled food or water, if treatment and recovery is possible and if so what is the treatment and how long is the recovery period; and anything else we don’t even know to ask yet. Unfortunately I think we’re pretty aware NOW of the early signs we missed in our girls.

 

[Isaac 0]

I'm very sorry for your losses. I believe I talked to you in your other thread about the ducks, correct? Did you have testing done to confirm they had Botulism, or is that a guess basing on their symptoms? Generally, birds that ingested Clostridium, are going to show much severe signs then your birds were like full-body paralysis. If I recall correctly, your birds were only breathing heavily and acting lethargic?

I'm not saying that wasn't the cause, it just doesn't seem like a particular Botulism case to me, but I very well could be wrong.

Generally, if any bird has been suspected of eating anything toxic, they should be taken to a vet, but if not available, two things need to be focused on. Hydrating the animal, and administering either a laxative or cathartic to help expel or absorb the toxins.

There are a wide variety of things you can use in the case of Toxiciois, like Molasses, and Epsom salts. For something like Botulism or spoiled feed, activated charcoal may be best, as unlike the laxative the charcoal will "bind with the potential toxins). For activated charcoal, you can just get some pills, but I use what's called "Toxiban" around here.

https://www.amazon.com/Lloyd-Toxiban-Suspension-240-mL/dp/B000RI88V8

I dilute some of the liquid down with an electrolyte and directly administer the mixture into their crop via a tube. Tube feeding is preferred than just putting it in their water as they may not be drinking much, and you'll be able to get a lot more into their body faster than just dripping it along their bill. With the tube you'll also be able to periodically hydrate them.

You can learn about tube feeding here :

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/tube-feeding-ducks-updated-5-7-2020.1211994/

 

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

I'm very sorry for your losses. I believe I talked to you in your other thread about the ducks, correct? Did you have testing done to confirm they had Botulism, or is that a guess basing on their symptoms? Generally, birds that ingested Clostridium, are going to show much severe signs then your birds were like full-body paralysis. If I recall correctly, your birds were only breathing heavily and acting lethargic?

I'm not saying that wasn't the cause, it just doesn't seem like a particular Botulism case to me, but I very well could be wrong.

Generally, if any bird has been suspected of eating anything toxic, they should be taken to a vet, but if not available, two things need to be focused on. Hydrating the animal, and administering either a laxative or cathartic to help expel or absorb the toxins.

There are a wide variety of things you can use in the case of Toxiciois, like Molasses, and Epsom salts. For something like Botulism or spoiled feed, activated charcoal may be best, as unlike the laxative the charcoal will "bind with the potential toxins). For activated charcoal, you can just get some pills, but I use what's called "Toxiban" around here.

https://www.amazon.com/Lloyd-Toxiban-Suspension-240-mL/dp/B000RI88V8

I dilute some of the liquid down with an electrolyte and directly administer the mixture into their crop via a tube. Tube feeding is preferred than just putting it in their water as they may not be drinking much, and you'll be able to get a lot more into their body faster than just dripping it along their bill. With the tube you'll also be able to periodically hydrate them.

You can learn about tube feeding here :

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/tube-feeding-ducks-updated-5-7-2020.1211994/

Yes, you’d asked for a video I was unable to provide however there wasn’t much to show as they were just sitting there, breathing slowly with their mouths open, unable to stand and unable to eat or drink. The one that was more severe soon after developed droopy wings and ‘limp neck’. We now realize that there were signs earlier that we mistook for something else such as her voice was changing and on a couple of occasions upon sitting all night in her nesting box she took a moment to find her footing. I’d finally located a couple of vets who saw Muscovies but couldn’t say when so I took them to a wildlife center that was recommended. I spoke to them on the phone prior to bringing them as I was trying to decide if it was worth the risk waiting for word from a vet as to when they could be seen or if they seemed knowledgeable and caring and capable of doing whatever testing was necessary and providing whatever treatment may needed.

 

[lesterandlucy]

I am hopping onto this thread to confirm that the poster above who recommended toxiban and fluids is correct. That’s how I pulled my goose through botulism. It is a bit intimidating and seems invasive, but it saves lives. Also see if you can purchase some Baytril to have on hand to help treat an infection in the future. Ask your vet if you can purchase a bag of lactated ringer solution from them to have on hand for emergencies. Keeping the bird hydrated is critical, and since they typically become so lethargic they can’t function, they struggle to drink on their own. Some ducks even drown trying to get water in while fighting botulism.

 

[Isaac 0]

I am hopping onto this thread to confirm that the poster above who recommended toxiban and fluids is correct. That’s how I pulled my goose through botulism. It is a bit intimidating and seems invasive, but it saves lives. Also see if you can purchase some Baytril to have on hand to help treat an infection in the future. Ask your vet if you can purchase a bag of lactated ringer solution from them to have on hand for emergencies. Keeping the bird hydrated is critical, and since they typically become so lethargic they can’t function, they struggle to drink on their own. Some ducks even drown trying to get water in while fighting botulism.

If you're ever looking for IV fluid bags, and don't want to go to your vet you can get some here :

https://www.atlanticmedsupply.com/. without RX

 

[lesterandlucy]

If you're ever looking for IV fluid bags, and don't want to go to your vet you can get some here :

https://www.atlanticmedsupply.com/. without RX

What a great tip! Thank you so much

 

[Eggcessive]

Sorry for your loss. Unfortunately botulism can be common in ducks and waterfowl from eating the toxin produced by dead fish or animals that have been in anaerobic conditions under water or underground without oxygen.

Moldy feed does not cause botulism, but can cause mycotoxin poisoning which can cause some similar neurological symptoms. Botulism causes a flaccid paralysis starting at the feet and legs progressing up the soinal nerves to wings, neck and eyelids, eventually stopping the muscles for breathing. It happens over hours. Botulism is very hard to identify with testing in a necropsy, but symptoms can help.

 

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

Thank you all for your suggestions and advice. As careful about surroundings as were we (they were indoor/outdoor ducks, outdoor consisting of our fenced in patio with plenty of areas to forage and our pool), and about food and potentially toxic plants, we somehow we missed throughout our research botulism and other common illnesses and failed to have first aid items on hand. A lesson hard learned and one we hope never to repeat. My heart is still aching. We did find upon searching a possible source if it were botulism the remains of a dead rat, mostly gone at that point but with a few maggots still milling about. It was elevated above the ducks reach but if the Wildlife Center’s observed assessment was correct perhaps the rat was infected and at least one or two of the maggots fell to the ground or flies grew from the infected maggots. It’s the only thing we can think of as a source IF their visual diagnosis was correct. The more advanced one had developed ‘limberneck’ and the eyes closed but the other one was holding her head up and still alert. Neither were standing or walking. Unfortunately I may never know if they could have recovered as we learned upon calling 25 hours later for an update that they had been euthanized with not even an attempt at administering charcoal or fluids the reasons given; one was too advanced and the other was found to have a severe spinal deformity upon X-ray so they made a ‘quality of life’ decision. It’s hard enough to knowing we may have contributed to whatever it was they had, both by missing something potentially hazardous, by not being informed and prepared for emergencies, and, although we thought at the time we were bringing them to the place best prepared to help them (only two local vets see birds and those two are not that familiar with Muscovies and didn’t think they’d be able to see them that day anyway and almost all local vets I called recommended this particular Wildlife Center) it makes it all the harder not knowing if there’s actually anything that could have been done and wasn’t.

 

[Eggcessive]

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

I'm very sorry for your losses. I believe I talked to you in your other thread about the ducks, correct? Did you have testing done to confirm they had Botulism, or is that a guess basing on their symptoms? Generally, birds that ingested Clostridium, are going to show much severe signs then your birds were like full-body paralysis. If I recall correctly, your birds were only breathing heavily and acting lethargic?

I'm not saying that wasn't the cause, it just doesn't seem like a particular Botulism case to me, but I very well could be wrong.

Generally, if any bird has been suspected of eating anything toxic, they should be taken to a vet, but if not available, two things need to be focused on. Hydrating the animal, and administering either a laxative or cathartic to help expel or absorb the toxins.

There are a wide variety of things you can use in the case of Toxiciois, like Molasses, and Epsom salts. For something like Botulism or spoiled feed, activated charcoal may be best, as unlike the laxative the charcoal will "bind with the potential toxins). For activated charcoal, you can just get some pills, but I use what's called "Toxiban" around here.

https://www.amazon.com/Lloyd-Toxiban-Suspension-240-mL/dp/B000RI88V8

I dilute some of the liquid down with an electrolyte and directly administer the mixture into their crop via a tube. Tube feeding is preferred than just putting it in their water as they may not be drinking much, and you'll be able to get a lot more into their body faster than just dripping it along their bill. With the tube you'll also be able to periodically hydrate them.

You can learn about tube feeding here :

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/tube-feeding-ducks-updated-5-7-2020.1211994/

I'm very sorry for your losses. I believe I talked to you in your other thread about the ducks, correct? Did you have testing done to confirm they had Botulism, or is that a guess basing on their symptoms? Generally, birds that ingested Clostridium, are going to show much severe signs then your birds were like full-body paralysis. If I recall correctly, your birds were only breathing heavily and acting lethargic?

I'm not saying that wasn't the cause, it just doesn't seem like a particular Botulism case to me, but I very well could be wrong.

Generally, if any bird has been suspected of eating anything toxic, they should be taken to a vet, but if not available, two things need to be focused on. Hydrating the animal, and administering either a laxative or cathartic to help expel or absorb the toxins.

There are a wide variety of things you can use in the case of Toxiciois, like Molasses, and Epsom salts. For something like Botulism or spoiled feed, activated charcoal may be best, as unlike the laxative the charcoal will "bind with the potential toxins). For activated charcoal, you can just get some pills, but I use what's called "Toxiban" around here.

https://www.amazon.com/Lloyd-Toxiban-Suspension-240-mL/dp/B000RI88V8

I dilute some of the liquid down with an electrolyte and directly administer the mixture into their crop via a tube. Tube feeding is preferred than just putting it in their water as they may not be drinking much, and you'll be able to get a lot more into their body faster than just dripping it along their bill. With the tube you'll also be able to periodically hydrate them.

You can learn about tube feeding here :

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/tube-feeding-ducks-updated-5-7-2020.1211994/

Thank you this information. I’ve circled back to your reply now that we’ve just brought home two new little girls(?) and am admittedly a bit paranoid after our previous experience. I’ve just ordered toxiban but am hoping you can direct me to where we can purchase the tubing materials. Or at least what specifically to look for?