Selection of autosexing chicks- crele, barred duckwing?

[HomesteadNowhere]

Getting to the point that I know enough to be dangerous I'm looking at creating a line of crele/barred duckwing chickens and having the chicks be autosexing would be really great. From what little I understand of it so far you can select for strong distinction in the chicks for the autosexing. What does this look like? What are the selection points for this? Does it matter if it's gold, red, yellow/cream duckwing or just as long as it's duckwing?
I couldn't find a thread already on this topic but if there is feel free to link it here too.
Thanks!

 

[nicalandia]

Getting to the point that I know enough to be dangerous I'm looking at creating a line of crele/barred duckwing chickens and having the chicks be autosexing would be really great. From what little I understand of it so far you can select for strong distinction in the chicks for the autosexing. What does this look like? What are the selection points for this? Does it matter if it's gold, red, yellow/cream duckwing or just as long as it's duckwing?
I couldn't find a thread already on this topic but if there is feel free to link it here too.
Thanks!

Crele breeds like the crele OEGB are technically auto-sexing by default because they carry all of the needed genes(Wildtype, Sex linked barring) Silver or Gold works.

With all of the genes set on the breed all you do is keep breeding towards making the sexing easier, some people lose track of this ultimate goal and focus more on the adult phenotype and you end up like many breeders of the Cream Legbars, with dark males and females with head spots(I no longer give them advice on their forum thread because it felt in deaf ears)

Some strains of CLB male chicks have no business being so dark, males should be at least one shade(preferably two shades) lighter than females, females should have no headspot or the faintest possible.

exhibit A, a male chick as dark as his sisters(cream Legbar chicks)

Female chick with headspot

Here a group of CLB male chicks, the ones on the left are the clear keepers, the one on the right will be a clear cull for beign too dark

So its all about working towards making autosexing easier

 

[nicalandia]

In short. Yes you need e+/e+, B/B, but you need to breed towards that and while is true that I would be able to pick up which one is a female and which one is a male from two chicks or a small group of chicks, things become very difficult when dealing with a lot of chicks on the same box, you should be able to identify a male chick from a sea of females chicks(even females with headspot) by their lighter chick down tone as not to spend too much time at looking at each chick individually.

Cream Legbar dark males(Circled in yellow to identify them easier)

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Does it matter if the base is wild type/duckwing or partridge/brown?
I seem to read conflicting information. I'd be using Bielefelder so which are they? I'm assuming it should work the same with either base color?

 

[nicalandia]

Does it matter if the base is wild type/duckwing or partridge/brown?
I seem to read conflicting information. I'd be using Bielefelder so which are they? I'm assuming it should work the same with either base color?

The best e allele for autosexing is wildtype e+, Bielefelder are wildtype e+ based,

Norwegian Jaerhon are partridge eb based and are very much autosexing since the males are always lighter than females but both gender have a white headspot, but the headspot on males is rather large and may extend to the neck and face


Norwegian Jaerhon male on the left and female on the right

Autosexing can also be done with ER Birchen, while Birchen chick down may look identical to Extended black E, once the autosexing barring gene is present it changes the color to an eb/eb like tone of color as you would expect from a autosexing eb(as eb on itself is a Mutation of ER birchen)

Golden Cuckoo Marans are Autosexing themselves and when crossed with another autosexing breed like CCL the chicks come out autosexing themselves taking the chick down color of golden cuckoo Maran..

https://papaspoultry.com/products/copy-of-auto-sexing-olive-egger-male-chick-cockerel


From best to worst autosexing e alleles

e+/e+> eb/eb = ER/ER >>E/E >>eWh/eWh

Wheaten needs the Columbia restrictor to work, males are yellow, females are darker in color

https://eggsellent.com.au/offers/new-south-wales/hambar/

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Anything that combines wildtype and barring is by default autosexing, as Niclandia says, but if you mix up those patterns you may get ambiguously marked chicks for a while. That seems to happen even just crossing lines in the same breed quite a bit though, which is my theory as to why autosexing in is legbars sometimes such a mess. (Novice breeders always thinking they need unrelated lines, etc.)

A couple of other things: Even straight duckwing birds can be autosexing if it's a trait that's bred for. My lt brown leghorns, for example, are easily sexed at hatch as long as i don't cross lines or any such nonsense.

Autosexing with wildtype plus barring can be achieved in just about any color variation. In legbars alone I see it in gold, cream, silver, lavender, recessive white and blue.

Now a question: what are you trying to achieve with a Bielfelder cross?

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Anything that combines wildtype and barring is by default autosexing, as Niclandia says, but if you mix up those patterns you may get ambiguously marked chicks for a while. That seems to happen even just crossing lines in the same breed quite a bit though, which is my theory as to why autosexing in is legbars sometimes such a mess. (Novice breeders always thinking they need unrelated lines, etc.)

A couple of other things: Even straight duckwing birds can be autosexing if it's a trait that's bred for. My lt brown leghorns, for example, are easily sexed at hatch as long as i don't cross lines or any such nonsense.

Autosexing with wildtype plus barring can be achieved in just about any color variation. In legbars alone I see it in gold, cream, silver, lavender, recessive white and blue.

Now a question: what are you trying to achieve with a Bielfelder cross?

Thanks!
Bielefelder for the barring and duckwing, to make autosexing. I only had one this year, the extra chick, and really like him which got me into figuring out how autosexing works.
If I can sex chicks right off then I can see the males and feed them heavily for the freezer and raise the pullets out for prospective replacements. Especially for the meat line I'd like to create where the pullets would need fed just right to keep them from being over fat.

I'd like to go Bielefelder x blue ameraucana to create blue/green eggs and autosexing.

For the meat line Bielefelder x new Hampshire, Henry noll line from freedom ranger hatchery is already bred for meat traits. I'd plan to keep some NH going pure and then the autosexing project. Then later if the autosexing line is doing great I can let go the NH, or if it fails then I have the NH to fall back on. And I'd have my own NH to keep from having to bring in, the autosexing line will be from the same base as the autosexing so keeping the same genes.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Thanks!
Bielefelder for the barring and duckwing, to make autosexing. I only had one this year, the extra chick, and really like him which got me into figuring out how autosexing works.
If I can sex chicks right off then I can see the males and feed them heavily for the freezer and raise the pullets out for prospective replacements. Especially for the meat line I'd like to create where the pullets would need fed just right to keep them from being over fat.

I'd like to go Bielefelder x blue ameraucana to create blue/green eggs and autosexing.

For the meat line Bielefelder x new Hampshire, Henry noll line from freedom ranger hatchery is already bred for meat traits. I'd plan to keep some NH going pure and then the autosexing project. Then later if the autosexing line is doing great I can let go the NH, or if it fails then I have the NH to fall back on. And I'd have my own NH to keep from having to bring in, the autosexing line will be from the same base as the autosexing so keeping the same genes.

Is there some reason Bielfelders and/or Legbars don't fit your needs? Seems easier (and cheaper) to get a few Biel pullets than embark on a multi year breeding project.

TBH, the New Hampshire line you have would probably improve the biels in the US. Cross your male over them and start breeding back to the Bielfelder standard. It'll take a few generations to get color and autosexing right, but you'll probably have a better line of Biels than the others that are out there now. Though they're supposed to be the "uber chicken" for dual purpose, i haven't been impressed by reports on egg laying OR carcass quality. They need people that will fix those things.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Is there some reason Bielfelders and/or Legbars don't fit your needs? Seems easier (and cheaper) to get a few Biel pullets than embark on a multi year breeding project.

TBH, the New Hampshire line you have would probably improve the biels in the US. Cross your male over them and start breeding back to the Bielfelder standard. It'll take a few generations to get color and autosexing right, but you'll probably have a better line of Biels than the others that are out there now. Though they're supposed to be the "uber chicken" for dual purpose, i haven't been impressed by reports on egg laying OR carcass quality. They need people that will fix those things.

Basically what you said. If the NH are what is said they are, which seems to be from what I've seen from people who have got them from the same source, then they are most of the way towards what I want in a meat line.
I've seen alot of hype around Bielefelders but I've seen lots of hype basically over every breed for every animal I've ever raised. From what I've seen from regular people sharing their experiences it seems like the Bielefelders in the US are more hype than is delivered in actual traits of the birds. As has been my experience with most animals.

Autosexing is a no brainer for me. Being able to feed them separately is optimal. No matter what I'm looking at several years to get birds that are working for what I want, I may as well have a line to try and reach the goal of autosexing as well. It doesn't set me back at all because I'm starting at the beginning. I'm looking at the same time investment in keeping some of the NH to breed pure.
Just makes sense to me.

Same for the ameraucana x Bielefelder. I can sex the chicks and know how many pullets. Once I'm happy with them I can sell sexed pullets for more than just straight run chicks. I could sell started pullets. I can raise the cockerels pushing the feed more for weight gain and even if they are not that big I can use them for cat and dog food.
I like the blue and green eggs, and it would be nice for the bit of egg sales I do.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Basically what you said. If the NH are what is said they are, which seems to be from what I've seen from people who have got them from the same source, then they are most of the way towards what I want in a meat line.
I've seen alot of hype around Bielefelders but I've seen lots of hype basically over every breed for every animal I've ever raised. From what I've seen from regular people sharing their experiences it seems like the Bielefelders in the US are more hype than is delivered in actual traits of the birds. As has been my experience with most animals.

Autosexing is a no brainer for me. Being able to feed them separately is optimal. No matter what I'm looking at several years to get birds that are working for what I want, I may as well have a line to try and reach the goal of autosexing as well. It doesn't set me back at all because I'm starting at the beginning. I'm looking at the same time investment in keeping some of the NH to breed pure.
Just makes sense to me.

Same for the ameraucana x Bielefelder. I can sex the chicks and know how many pullets. Once I'm happy with them I can sell sexed pullets for more than just straight run chicks. I could sell started pullets. I can raise the cockerels pushing the feed more for weight gain and even if they are not that big I can use them for cat and dog food.
I like the blue and green eggs, and it would be nice for the bit of egg sales I do.

I understand the benefits of having a stable dual purpose breed for sure. I'm super deep into this and keep brown leghorns and legbars for this reason, and I'm breeding autosexing patterns into my Houdans for the same reason.

BUT, from that same financial standpoint, I'd urge you to work on and improve existing breeds (even if you do so by outcrossing to a better line, like your New Hampshires) with some name recognition as opposed to whipping up your own barnyard mixes. There are breeds that exist and have name recognition that are popular with buyers that fill these niches, and they need serious breeders working on them and improving them. You could make these existing breeds everything you want with less effort than mixing up a bunch of stuff to make-do, and if you do well you will have people across the continent looking for eggs and chicks and birds because what's out there ain't great.