Should I get a livestock guardian dog?

[rnoyster]

I have two dogs here on the property, since losing the others in just the last several months. One is a 4 year old GSD who has been brought up with the chickens. He barely pays any attention to them while they are out, but will occasionally lay in the pasture while they are free ranging and just watch them or sleep. He couldn't really care less. The other dog, also has been raised with the birds. He is a beagle/chiuaha mix. Looks like a small white and tan beagle, just very small. He doesn't bother the birds either. Well, he didn't bother the birds until last Thursday afternoon! I saw him coming out of the coop, looking very strange. I went over to investigate and found five 3 month old BO pullets killed right in the coop. He had gone in and done his deed where I couldn't see him! The wife came home, just as I found the birds or there would have been another body to dispose of! He is confined to the dog pen, on death row. He has been charged, found guilty and sentenced to death if it happens again! He had never been any trouble with the birds until then. Morale???? Almost any dog can and will chase, and hurt the birds if given enough leeway! Keep them all in your sight or locked out of the path of the birds!

 

[vicki2x2]

I have to agree with anngili, we recently purchased a LGD. I did my homework, researched breeds, their characteristics, tendencies, etc and then researched breeders, their lines, how they trained their dogs, etc. I decided on a Maremma.

Than I spoke with the breeder and made sure things were a good fit. I had a really good feeling about this breeder, we clicked, we had similar ideas about dogs and training, but she knew her breed and her dogs, so I let her guide me and tell me what would be best, a puppy, an older pup, a young adult or a finished adult. This breeder guarantees her dogs, and part of purchasing a dog from her includes a lifetime of support. Calls, emails, whatever.

We chose to drive out to pick up our puppy, we went with an older pup, he was 5 months, he was exposed to all the type of livestock we had, chickens, ducks, geese, goats, cats, and other dogs. He was sterilized, microchipped, taught to respect fences, not to jump, to lead, not to eat grain, and much more. He lived with older dogs to help with his training. We arrived, got a tour of the farm, met all the dogs, who were all super friendly but obviously devoted to their livestock. We talked for hours, got lots of instructions and had a great time!

This breeder also did a lot of retraining of LGD's that people were having trouble with, either aggression, to rough with livestock, eating chickens, or other problems. As she put it, almost 100% were people made problems, due to lack of or improper training. Many believed you shouldn't handle LGD's, so they would bond with their livestock. That leads to dogs that are not friendly, not handable, aggressive, etc. Some were very underfed, not realizing the needs of a working dog. They then didn't understand why the dogs will kill and eat their chickens, not just kill and leave them like most dogs do. That is because the dog was malnourished. After a few months of good food and gaining a lot of weight, he was guarding chickens again with no problems.

Our boy is now 7 months and is doing fabulously. We are in contact with the breeder and if any questions or concerns pop up, she is there to help us through it and is has made all the difference! That is the big key!!

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote:
One of the biggest problems I see is people think they can get a TRUE LGD breed, and then treat it like a "yard dog" or "pet"

It's only asking for trouble to let one run loose. They need to be confined, just like your livestock is confined, if you expect them to protect the livestock.

ALL animals require SOME training. With a good LGD breed, from working stock, that training will be minimal, but STILL needs to be done.

Also, most LGD's wont be "mature" until they are around 2 years old, but can weigh over 100 lbs at 6-7 months. If you dont have control of them by then, it may be too late.

If you want a pet or a yard dog, DON'T get one of the LGD breeds.

http://www.lgd.org/

http://www.bountifulfarm.com/lgd_seminar.htm

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

I decided on a Maremma.

Youre a SMART lady!

And how could anyone resist something that looks like this?:

 

[dianneS]

Thanks for all the input. I guess what makes me the most nervous about the LGD's is the lack of socialization that people keep telling me is necessary to make them bond with their herd. I don't want a dangerous dog on my property, just one that will chase away the fox and other critters and warn me if there is a human preditor lurking around!

The Karakachans that I saw last night were amazing dogs! The pups were already working. Staying with their goats as they went out to pasture. One pup stayed with the goats that remained in the pen.

I met the big Daddy dog and he was very nice and social, wagging his tail and getting his enormous head petted, then he went back to his goats too!

I'm just concerned about this "one extreme or the other" idea that I'm picking up on. I was basically told that if I socialize him with humans (even teach him to sit or walk on a leash!) he will be worthless as a guardian.

I'm starting to think that a pet dog, large enough to seem threatening to any preditors would be fine in my case. My goats don't need 24/7 monitoring by a LGD. My chickens could use a full time guardian, but I think a pet that knows not to kill the chickens hanging around would be enough of a deterrent to the preditors we have.

I guess I started looking at LGD's in the first place because I just wanted a breed genetically programmed NOT to kill livestock, with low prey drive. I didn't really start seeking them out because I need a full-time guardian.

I know some people do make LGD's pets, and they work out okay as pets, but would that make them susceptible to chasing chickens and goats, or would they still protect if necessary? I was also interested in a bigger dog that would protect the house as well and if my LGD is out in the pasture with the goats he wouldn't be able to do that.

I do have every intention of keeping the dog confined, I wouldn't be able to let him roam free. But if he's bonded to the goats, apparently I can't take him away from the goats and have him watch the chickens, or the house, is what I've been told anyway.

I'm calling a few more breeders and a member of the Karakachan Dog association tomorrow with lots of questions http://www.karakachandog.com/

 

[mekasmom]

It's the age you get the dog. They bond with their pack (herd). If you get a six week old puppy that grows up with your goats/children/chickens/etc then it will not bite them as an adult. They guard their flock. They don't bite their own family, why would they? They would die to protect them. They may be too rough with them trying to play. But they don't attack and kill them in anger. That's why it is better to get them in pairs. They have a rough and tumble playmate, so they don't try to play with the goats so much.
Some of the LG breeds are more likely to bite. Anatolians are more likely to bite a human than a pyr is. I would never trust my anatolian with strangers around be it kids or adults. The pyrs are fine with anyone, but will kill stray cats who come onto their property.
If you go out and get a two year old anatolian, who never bonded with you as a pup, you have a potential bite coming to you or your child. If you get an older pyerenees who hasn't bonded with your flock, you may have issues. It has to do with "dog psychology" and their bonding. They bond to their pack.

 

[lotzahenz]

Great info here, I too am thinking like the OP, which dog if any. I love all the advise. Thanks all. HenZ

 

[dianneS]

I was told that the Karakachan's stick with their herd where a great Pyr sort of patrols the boarder?

I'm going to look at a four month old great pyr today and she is being raised as a pet, not a guardian. She's never seen a goat or chicken in her life.

She's only four months, I guess she could be trained but I don't know if she would be the right fit, unless of course I just wanted a pet!

 

[vicki2x2]

Quote:
I disagree about the socialization, but to each their own. We don't "play" with our Maremma, like fetch, ball, tug of war, etc. but he does get love and attention when we are out there and he loves it. However, he also loves his herd and is upset if you take one away. He is NEVER aggressive.

I wouldn't have a LGD if I had to raise them by ignoring them. How do you treat them if they need medications or vaccinations? I would think they would become more of a liability than an asset at that point, especially with children.

 

[jenjscott]

Our experience has been with a pyr that was simply a family dog. Best dog I ever had. He didn't mind other dogs in the yard if they weren't too big. We had a little terrier who thought he would take the pyr's food one day. The Griz simple picked him up and tossed him aside. No anger, no injury, just got him out of the way. Every time we let him out of the house, he would run around the perimeter of the yard (about 3 acres cleared in 240 acres of timberland) barking and checking things out, then would return to the porch to survey his kingdom. NEVER an appearance of aggresion toward people, his size was enough of a deterrent for most to want to challange. I have seen him run down a coyote unfortunate enough to be caught out in the open. Raccoon, oppossums, even armadillos didn't stand a chance. He was raised with a deer. They used to run the the woods together and play in the yard. They would take turns chasing each other. The deer would turn and strike at him with here hooves. But never hurt him, and he never hurt her. He never bothered out cats. No chickens at the time, so I don't know how that would have worked, but probably the same as with everything else.