show quality from HATCHERY

[EweSheep]

I have to agree with Jody and Blue here about the quantity of birds needed to get a few show quality stock.....I was just shocked when Dick Boulanger of Faverolle breeds and Jim LaGengenre of Silver Spangled Hamburg Bantams of the numbers of birds...they ALL had to go thru ALOT of birds just to get a few show quality individuals and about 1/4 of them will go on to breeding stock and the rest of them will go on to be pets or food. And the price will be higher than normal market because you are paying for quality birds and you have to hope for the best to have your birds winning the shows or to improve your stock. Other than that, they would be happy to sell you some birds of a little less of show quality but better than hatchery stock and better example of the breed themselves. They wont sell you a bird if it does not fit the cruiteria of the standard and they got alot of years and experience in their birds as well. Boulanger have been breeding Favs for many years, I think 20 years or more and Jim has over 30 years and so has Mike Blehm and Mike Gilbert of the Amercuanas (not EE!)

 

[hinkjc]

I am going to go a step further and say that you cannot call something show quality, imo, until it wins at a sanctioned show. So what you may consider show quality, may not be according to a judge. That's why I never understood how people could sell "show quality" eggs or show quality chicks. Just doesn't make sense. You can say, you have a chance at getting show quality birds, but no one claim they are show quality unless they're selling the bird that won a show.

Jody

 

[Frizzledhen]

From my experience with showing horses, what one judge likes, the next one doesn't. Take 2 birds to a show and one will win this week and next week the other might win. Show quality can simply mean that the bird is good enough to show. It is not until that bird has been shown and won by more than one judge that one can say they own a proven show bird. So to me a show quality bird is correctly labeled even if it has never shown if it meet all the breed standards. Now a proven show quality would be a bird that has been shown and won. JMO
Gayle

 

[Frozen Feathers]

I agree with Gayle. I've seen some birds placed that don't even come close to the standard and I wouldn't call them show quality or even breeder quality.
Some of the shows (rather fairs) around here are so small you may see only one or two examples of a breed and rather then DQ a bird, they get a blue ribbon.
One show this year had a Silkie with a speck of a crest and only 4 toes, and that bird got a 1st place ribbon, not because it deserved it but because there was no competition. But now that breeder thinks they have a "show quality" bird when they only have pet quality.

 

[speckledhen]

Jody said:

I am going to go a step further and say that you cannot call something show quality, imo, until it wins at a sanctioned show. So what you may consider show quality, may not be according to a judge. That's why I never understood how people could sell "show quality" eggs or show quality chicks. Just doesn't make sense. You can say, you have a chance at getting show quality birds, but no one claim they are show quality unless they're selling the bird that won a show.

I agree. I think you can call them breeder quality, but show quality birds are actually quite rare. My Ameraucana cockerel came from show stock. His sire is a show quality Ameraucana rooster from the famous Cree lines; my friend purchased him at the show. My cockerel's mother was a true Ameraucana from a breeder, however, would more appropriately been considered a breeder cull, I think. I never would suggest that Scout is show quality. FROM show quality stock, yes, for whatever that's worth. He has inherited traits from his mother that have shown up and made him less in quality, although a perfectly handsome and beautiful cockerel. His chicks can inherit those traits or perhaps a show quality bird will pop up from him in the future. There is truly no way to know that, however, and I would never claim he will definitely produce any show quality offspring.​

 

[pipermark]

If someone wants to honestly advertise thier birds I think the following guide line is proper.

Hatched from show stock - to me this means that the breeders, both male and female have at least made bv at a APA sanction show.

Show quality - meets the APA standards for that breed, however my experience has proven to me that most people to dont know what the standard is for their breed. My interest right now is Silkies, I have seen, on egg bid, SQ advertised on birds with red combs, red earlobes, etc. Since these birds are listed with pics I do not believe this is a deliberate misrepresentation just ignorance on the part of the seller.

Proven SQ - must have made at least BV at an APA show, against with at least 3 breeders showing birds in that variety. I think this is the same criteria the APA uses for issuing breeder points.

If you are interested in trying to develope and maintian a line of SQ birds, I urge you to go to an APA show, look at the birds, speak with the breeders. When I started I found the breeders and the judges (only speak to them after the show, you can say hi, let them know you would like advice and could they give you a few minuted when the judging is over), to be very helpful.

 

[pipermark]

One more thing to address breeders selling straight run only.

If you are running a breeder program then you have limited breeders because you have culled the bad one,hatcheries do not do this. Hatcheries hatch out thousands of chicks so they can afford to throw out the unsold males. Breeders do not hatch out that many chicks so they cant afford to only sell pullets. Also, if you are purchasing from a good breeder than this usually means you want to breed as well, therefore you want both males and females.

Again I emphasize many people calling themselves breeders, do not mean they are following a good breeding program. If you are really serious about this ask to see pictures of their flock. You should not see any obviously flawed adult birds in their pens.

Now their are many people that sell birds, that have won shows, so you have a chance of getting a bird with good genetics, but they aren't following a strict culling program. I see nothing wrong with starting your own program with this type of stock, and it will be a lot less expensive then say like purchase Silkies from Hatrick vs some of the folks on this board.

So once again, education, and then making the best choices within your budget will get you, IMHO , the best result.

 

[lady chicken whisperer]

It really depends one what type of breed you want. Standard birds can all be sexed, its just the bantams that they dont bother with at hatcheries. If you want, say a golden laced wyandotte standard, im not sure if it would make a difference between breeder and hatchery (i ordered some GLW from McMurray and boy did they look like crap). Birds that have more barring and lacing are harder to get in show quality no matter where you get them, although i did get a barred bantam cochin rooster from Meyer that is the most gorgeous bird ive ever seen. He placed first in his cockerel class at the fair

.

I would really have to say figure out which birds you want first. Japanese tend to do better at my fair. But Meyer is a great hatchery, have gotten nothing but beautiful birds from them.

 

[seedcorn]

Show quality - meets the APA standards for that breed, however my experience has proven to me that most people to dont know what the standard is for their breed.

We have a winner here. A lot of county judges are just well intentioned people that probably don't know every standard for every breed--mission impossible really......

 

[Mr. Ree]

Piper has hit about every nail on the head. It is true what was stated. It is NOT a SQ bird unless it has been in a show and has won at least a BV or RV in a class of 5 or more, thats my opinion. I have seen people say their birds are SQ for the simple fact they put them in a show. That does not make them SQ or does not mean they were from SQ bloodlines.

And even if you take two of the best reprasentations of a breed and breed them together you will NOT get 100% SQ offspring. Its more like a 10-20% chance you will get any good birds. And at most shows, you will not be buying any birds out of the show cages. People are showing them for a reason and if they are good enough they will not sale them, instead use them in their breeding program.

I do not know the standard of every breed there is but do know the standard for the breed I raise, Cochin Bantams. But it is a judges job to know every standard for every breed, thats what they are paid to do. And no matter what, every judge does not judge the same. Some are nit-picky and will fault you on the smallest imperfections on a bird, wether it be a feather out of place, to many points on the comb, leg color not perfect enough, or whatever it may be. And some will see that the bird is close enough to the standard and let it go. It is also true that a judge will not judge the same birds the same way twice, I know this from experience. I have taken a bird to a show and she got BV, Reserve Frizzle, and 1st pullet in a show with limited competition. A good win none-the-less, but the exact same judge was at a show a week later and I took the exact same bird and the competition was very harsh and she got BV, 1st Pullet, Champion Frizzle, and RB Cochin Bantam. So she placed higher in this show than the last with a more stiff competion.

As for hatcheries go, they usually want your money and thats it. They dont care that your birds arent exactly how they look in the catalog. SOMETIMES you will get a good bird from a hatchery but that is just by chance. It has happened to me a couple times, but only when more than 50 birds of the same color and breed were purchased. I also have a very good friend in Wa that won BB, BV, Champion RCCL, Champion Standard, and Reserve Champion of Show with a bird she purchased from a hatchery, and this was an APA Sanctioned show.

And what most people dont understand, is that most county fairs are NOT APA/ABA Sanctioned and the birds at these shows will not be nearly as good as birds in a Sancioned show. If you want to see a great variety of great examples of breeds go to a large ABA/APA Sanctioned show, that is where you will see alot of great birds. And like mentioned before, it is better to pay $50 for a pair of birds and go from there then to pay $5-$10 per bird for 3 years to get what you want. You will benefit in the long run. And you might not be able to get birds from someone in a show, but if you talk to most exhibitors and breeders they will try and help you out as much as possible if you are trying to get started in a certain breed, and will prolly be flattered that you liked their birds more than anyone elses. Just ask around if your at a show and if you dont get exactly what you want then, I am sure if you want a few months or so you will eventually get what your looking for.


~Casey

PS: Sorry for the long rant, didnt realize I was rambling.