Sick Buff Orpington hen. Please, I need help!!!!!!!

[dawg53]

Who ever started this rumor is an idiot...........DE does not break down in water or liquid of any kind......anyone with common sense and knows what DE is would know if it were ever to breakdown in water it would not even exist !!!!!!!!!!!!!! because it is the calcified remains of sea creatures.....................from the bottom of alot of water called the ocean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I really wish ppl would do some research before spreading untruths, about something they apparently do not know anything or about or do not understand the process that makes it works !!!!!!!!!
Sorry to burst the bubble Dawg but whoever told you this knows nothing about it..................
My horses have gotten it since I owned them and I have never had a worm problem, my dogs get it, my cats and now my chickens, I have never had a bad infestion of any kind of worm in over 12 years....it will also not make your animals sick or kill them like some of the so called miracle wormers on the market that are making the worms immune to the chemicals that kill them, and pretty soon none of them will work at all.........Kim..

No rumors here, it's A FACT that DE is useless when wet until it dries. Once DE cuts an insect, it is decessicated. After decessication it cant cut anything. It can only cut when dry. Inside an any animal, including humans, everything is wet. By the time the DE reaches the intestines, it has already absorbed wetness and wont cut worms. It is useless as a wormer for that reason. There is no scientific LIGITIMATE PROOF that DE kills worms other than what a salesman says on those websites. You obviously did NOT read that link in that reference I posted regarding the OP's OFFICIAL necropsy report.
I was on the DE bandwagon a long time ago until my birds got worms, talking from experience. Ask any vet or doctor why they dont sell DE as a wormer, they'd make a fortune dont you think? Pharmacies too! Dont you know Walmart pharmacy (even over the counter )would love to make a profit off DE? They'd get nailed for a for false advertisement regarding DE as a wormer.
Since you own animals, you already ought to know that wormers are rotated to prevent resistance, rotating pasture also helps. Do you how many worm eggs are produced by one worm living inside a chicken in one day? Do you know how many worms eggs are deposted onto the soil in one day? One large roundworms lay thousands of eggs a day infecting your soil. Worms weaken the chickens immune system allowing diseases and bacterial infections to invade their system causing multiple problems. Ask the OP in that link I provided. One worm is one worm too many.

 

[speckledhen]

I don't like to become involved in the DE discussions, but for the sake of new members who are trying to grasp at straws for their ailing birds, I feel I need to do so here. I think we need a more balanced view for the folks looking for answers.

Unfortunately, over the past few years, there have been several BYC members, regular users of DE in their flocks, with necropsies reporting heavy wormloads in their birds. If you have birds with such a heavy wormload that they are unthrifty and maybe even on death's doorstep, DE is not your answer. You need something that works instantly and gets the job done NOW.

Before I do on, I will say that I do regularly use DE, but I don't expect more of it than it can give.

I myself used to put it in their feed at the 2% recommended ratio years ago, but no longer do that for two reasons:

1) The state vet official necropsy reports of birds who were regularly fed DE but were full of worms anyway.

2) A report of birds who literally died with their insides almost dessicated inside from overuse of DE-a well respected old time chicken keeper and long ago BYC staff member PM'd me of those reports a few years ago. DE is used to dry up moisture in feedstuffs. Overuse can be very harmful. I wish I had the link but have lost contact with that member.

I sometimes put about a cup of DE, only a scant cup, in a newly open bag of feed to kill any bugs that may get in there. I sprinkle it in nestboxes, sometimes under the main roost in damp weather periods, dust the birds themselves on rare occasions, especially broodies who are sitting for long stretches, but I do not feed the birds DE and have not in years.

And guess what? I don't worm them chemically, either, except maybe once every couple of years or if I have a specific reason to do so, like if I'm selling a bird that is leaving my property. Mine free range on a regular basis and free ranging birds rarely need worming since they tend to find natural wormers when they're foraging out and about. Been ages and ages since I saw a worm in poop around here. My birds are fat and sassy so no signs of any worm issues.

A truly healthy chicken can carry a small wormload with no adverse affects, which may surprise some of you-I've said that for years and a veterinarian who recenty did a necropsy on a friend's bird said the bird had a few roundworms, but that it was a "normally found amount" that did not contribute at all to the death of the bird. Of course, you don't want those to overload the bird and since it was just starting to be a free ranged bird, it may never have had a too-large wormload.

DE is fine if you use it for what it is good for, but please don't expect it to cure everything under the sun. It does kill soft bodied bugs. I use it because I don't want to put pesticides in my nests. I've never had an infestation of lice or mites in my flock in the entire time I've had chickens.

One rooster I bought years ago came to me covered in lice. While he was in quarantine, I dusted him and his bedding with DE alone. It killed all the lice and he was clean when he went into my flock. If, however, I had an entire flock infested with mites/lice, I would go for the big guns and nip that in the bud quickly, however, since DE does not kill the bugs immediately on contact.

Hope this helps some of you who are trying to decide whether or not to buy food grade DE for use in your flock.

 

[GhostRider65]

I do not want to turn this thread into another discussion on DE, it is useful for many things including internal parasites, the OP is thinking her hen has mites, it will help with those but not as quickly as suggested Seven dust..... could her flock have worms well yes anyone's can, can they be lowered with the use of De yes they can, so can many chemicals wormers too a bit more quickly, but in the hens weakened state they might also kill her............that is the only point I wish to make at this time..anyone who wants to see a few articles on DE can look here at these.

http://www.morethanalive.com/Diatomaceous-Earth-Food-Grade-Powder
www.purepermaguard.com/diatomaceous-earth-study.php
http://ps.fass.org/content/90/7/1416.abstract
http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/mod/files/research/DE_Natural_Dewormer_Study.pdf
http://www.oregonlabrador.com/docs/health_DiatomaceousEarth.pdf

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: Valbazen starves out worms over a several day period, therefore will not clog up the system with a bunch of dead worms in a bird who has a heavy wormload, though some others might. It does not work the same as some other chemical wormers so there is no danger.

We do NOT want to get into the same old DE discussion on this member's thread, but a more balanced view was called for when folks who have critically ill birds and gave never even heard of it are told it does everything short of curing cancer (and some seem to think it does even that, apparently). It's almost become a religious belief to some. I love it for external parasites but wouldn't depend on it 5 minutes for internal ones.

Articles are interesting reading, but so are actual necropsy reports from the state poultry labs which seem to refute the one-sided articles; the proponents of the product turn a blind eye to the lab reports of birds ingesting DE regularly who die full of worms.

People say their birds never have worm issues because the birds are on DE. How do they know the birds would even have worm issues if they didn't ingest DE? Mine don't have worm issues and they don't get DE in their feed. So, can I also say mine don't have worms because they do not ingest DE? You see my point here?

Maybe if you want a larger discussion, you can start a thread of your own so we don't get off course more than we already have here.

Soooo, dandydoodle, how is your girl tonight? Any updates?


ETA: I want to add that where you live has MUCH to do with if you have real worm issues or not. Living in the soupy south, you cannot rely on the same things as you can if you live in the north where there are super cold winters or in the very dry climate out west. What works for one person may not work for another. Birds in different climates/areas have different issues.

 

[GhostRider65]

ETA: I want to add that where you live has MUCH to do with if you have real worm issues or not. Living in the soupy south, you cannot rely on the same things as you can if you live in the north where there are super cold winters or in the very dry climate out west. What works for one person may not work for another. Birds in different climates/areas have different issues.
[/quote]


Tottally agree with this..............
Don't agree about the worms n not having any, because any animal the consistently eats dirt or off the ground even, will come in contact with worms, some breeds are also better at being immune to them than others.
DD how is she doing.....I so pray she is improving.. Kim

 

[smithfam0908]

How is your little hen???

 

[dandydoodle]

PLEASE DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES I DID. USE PREVENTATIVES AND SAVE YOUR GIRLS AND BOYS!!!!!

I just wanted to thank everyone for trying to help us. I lost my Lucy last night.

We tried everything. We did the Seven 5% dust. We dusted her and the coop. I gave her a flea bath. I gave her vitamin water, meal worms and eggs with Kefir yogurt. We tried DE. When that didn't work we broke down and tried the wormer. Unfortunately I think I have learned a lesson the hard way and unfortunately my Little Lulu paid with her life. I didn't want any chemicals near my birds. I try to eat food with out chemicals or antibiotics in them so I didn't want any of that mess in our eggs. I figured if there was ever a problem I would have more of a notice then this but, I was wrong. I figured if we ever got fleas or anything I would treat then. I had no idea that when something like this came around one of my girls would be on her death bed .

As far as DE goes I think once one of your girls has it bad enough that she is showing symptoms it is to late for DE. I mean obviously I am no expert and I can only speak from my experience. My experience is it didn't help. I am hoping that it will help as a preventative but, I guess I won't know it doesn't work unless some else falls ill. As far as people saying you should use the wormers. I did give her this last night but, honestly I think it was already to late. I think she was just to weak and whether I gave it to her or not she would have passed. I wish now I had tried that as soon as I noticed she was sick but, unfortunately you live and learn and we have learned things the hard way.

I think I am leaning towards the most important thing is to be proactive and stop it before it is a problem. I think once one of your girls is this sick there isn't a whole lot you can do. How do ya'll prevent worms, fleas and mites etc.

I miss my little Lulu, she will always have a special place in my heart. I remember when we first got her we thought she was a boy. She had the most dominant personality of all of our birds and a huge floppy red comb. Nope, she was 100% girl and my favorite. I will miss my fluffy little buff with the big floppy comb. I will always kick myself for not using preventative.

Goodnight momma's pretty little Lulu, your momma will always love you!!!!

 

[GhostRider65]

WWWWWWWWWWW I'm so very sorry for your loss DD, She was such a cutie pie and I was praying for her..............
My mites are back again, and to tell you the truth I think they are coming from the bedding............ every time I change it out about every 3 weeks, I find them again shortly there after............. and I'm getting so very frustrated in treating my birds cleaning, cleaning , cleaning, throwing away almost brand new bedding. argggggggRRRRRRRRR
The reason I think it's the bedding is because I have a gimpy GLW rooster who has lived in my basement all winter in his coop, no contact with anyone but me and I just cleaned his coop 2 weeks ago and tonight I was picking it out in there and they were crawling all over me when I came out. He has had no contact with any other bird and I haven't yet put him outside in his run, because our nights have still been pretty cold, and he is a lone rooster because everyone picks on him so............ so off I go again back to fleet for more seven and flea soap.......... Again so very sorry for your beautiful girl.......



I used the De as a preventative, I also use Wormwood combination, bought at a local organic health care store, 1 tx a month added to the food with the De, and some kind of veggi to cover the nasty taste of the worm wood. I will give you the exact amount if you want to try it, there are many preventatives naturally too use........... ground pumpkin seeds are also good, and supposedly cayenne pepper also I will have to find my papers to list the rest, I will do that as soon as I find them. I say supposedly because I haven't yet tried the cayenne............ so I don't know. you could search google for natural wormers, I think garlic is also a good one, but it may make your eggs taste funny? I also never used that. one.
Sleep well LUCY..................

 

[dandydoodle]

AWWWWWWWWWWW I'm so very sorry for your loss DD, She was such a cutie pie and I was praying for her..............

My mites are back again, and to tell you the truth I think they are coming from the bedding............ every time I change it out about every 3 weeks, I find them again shortly there after............. and I'm getting so very frustrated in treating my birds cleaning, cleaning , cleaning, throwing away almost brand new bedding. argggggggRRRRRRRRR
The reason I think it's the bedding is because I have a gimpy GLW rooster who has lived in my basement all winter in his coop, no contact with anyone but me and I just cleaned his coop 2 weeks ago and tonight I was picking it out in there and they were crawling all over me when I came out. He has had no contact with any other bird and I haven't yet put him outside in his run, because our nights have still been pretty cold, and he is a lone rooster because everyone picks on him so............ so off I go again back to fleet for more seven and flea soap.......... Again so very sorry for your beautiful girl.......

I used the De as a preventative, I also use Wormwood combination, bought at a local organic health care store, 1 tx a month added to the food with the De, and some kind of veggi to cover the nasty taste of the worm wood. I will give you the exact amount if you want to try it, there are many preventatives naturally too use........... ground pumpkin seeds are also good, and supposedly cayenne pepper also I will have to find my papers to list the rest, I will do that as soon as I find them. I say supposedly because I haven't yet tried the cayenne............ so I don't know. you could search google for natural wormers, I think garlic is also a good one, but it may make your eggs taste funny? I also never used that. one.
Sleep well LUCY..................

Thanks,

Where are you getting your bedding from. What kind of bedding are you using. I think my Lulu might have had some other issues because, out of about 23 birds she is the only who has been affected. I wonder if the bugs attack the weak. I am not sure what preventative I am gonna use yet. The biggest problem I have is knowing how much to use of these products. For instance after I get rid of the problem with the Seven 5 % I am gonna put in about 3 inches of sand throughout the whole coop. That way hopefully if there is anything left I will bury it. Then I am gonna put in some DE as preventative but, I don't know how much to put. I don't know if I put it on the ground before I put the bedding in or on top or both. UGGGGH!!!!!!!!!!!! It all seems so confusing but, I just want to do it right so this doesn't happen again. I think I might give them a wormer once or twice a year for good measure and just not eat any of the eggs they lay for a couple of weeks. I never wanted to give them any of this kind of stuff but, I guess it is better losing my birds. The wormer people suggested to me was for goats and I tell you that really scares me. I was just looking at a catalog for Cackle Hatchery and I noticed that they sell wormer for chickens. I didn't realize they had some actually for chickens I am getting some of that. I just really wish I realized al of this before I lost Lucy. Have you ever lost a bird to worms, fleas or mites etc.

Oh yea, I feel your pain about having to clean out your coop over and over. I had just cleaned out the coop about a week before all this happened. I had removed all of the bedding and replaced and since this has happened I am doing it all over again.

Not to mention the coop is about 20 feet by 25 feet. I like having a good size coop but, dang it takes me about 4 hours of non stop cleaning to get out all the old chips and they aren't exactly light when you have to carry them to the compost. I am sure having to shovel in all that heavy sand is gonna be fun.

Sorry I am done fusing now.

Good luck with getting rid of your mites. Let me know how it goes.

 

[speckledhen]

So sorry to hear about Lulu.


Quote:
When I do a complete cleanout of the coop, I use Orange Guard citrus oil based spray in all cracks and crevices, nests and around the roosts. It is safe to use around the birds (not made to put on them, but in their area) and smells great. You can get it at ACE Hardware and if they don't have it, they can order it for you. It is a natural product and even kills termites if it contacts them.

I do sprinkle DE in the nests and always have. I have never, ever had lice/mites in my flock and I've kept chickens going on 7 years now so I am a DE user, just not as a wormer.

The only adult bird I ever bought came to me with lice and he was dusted with DE as was his bedding (while he was in quarantine) and that fixed his issue before he went into my flock, but not one of my hens has ever had lice or mites, probably because they never got a foothold in the nests and my birds have great GA dirt to dustbathe in under the coop and around my house.


Not sure what Cackle is selling, but there is no actual chemical wormer approved for poultry other than Wazine, which only kills roundworms. All others we use are off-label. Could be one of those with what they consider natural ingredients.

Also, some individual birds in particular seem more susceptible to mites/lice than others, I've read.