sick hen--dont know whats wrong--help

[rc-worth]

Hi,

I would love some help with this . . . . One of our 5 girls is not feeling well. She is a 16 month old Barred Rock. Normally very friendly and active. I first noticed something amiss when I went out last night to lock the coop and she was in the nest box. Not normal. I reached under her to collect the other eggs and there was wet egg-insides in the box. No broken shell. I looked at her vent and it looked like there was an egg on the way out. I decided to leave her alone for a little while to see if it sorted itself out. When I came back the egg still appeared to be part way out. I touched it and it was soft and didnt feel well attached so i pulled a little and off came half of an empty soft egg. I think it was just stuck to her bottom. Today she is very lethargic. Just stands or lies around. Spent some time in the nest box this morning but nothing. She did come down for a little oatmeal but only a little and then wandered off and back up to the nest box. When I checked on her later there was a soft-shelled empty egg on the ground outside of the coop and she is just hanging out outside. Alert but not scratching or moving around much. I saw her poop and out came some runny, very bright green stuff. We have noticed several soft shelled eggs over the last few months but were not sure who they belonged to or what to do about it. I also found egg insides (no broken shell) in the nest box a few days ago. We give them organic layer pellets, barley, oats, oyster shell, grit, kitchen scraps, sour milk and yogurt which they love but maybe is not good??, oatmeal with codliver oil and molasses, and put apple cider vinegar in their water. Our white leghorn's eggs have what look to be calcium deposits on their shells. A few of them have some broken roughed up looking feathers (including the sick one). I have been checking for mites and lice but havent seen any. Will do a more thorough check when i have help later today. We have not been able to move their run recently (due to lack of space) and I am afraid maybe the ground is sour. have been noticing more flies. There is also a large flock of sparrows that have been hanging around. I'm concerned about parasites, etc. Should I lime the run and dig it up a bit or rototill? Also, yesterday the neighbors were felling some trees for half the day which was upsetting to the girls. Maybe this had an affect? But she is probably the one who had been laying the other soft shelled eggs so whatever the problem is probably didnt start yesterday.

Thats all of the info i can think of that might help. She is a really sweet funny girl. I don't want her to die. I hate this. Any advice much appreciated.

Thanks!

Rachel

 

[rc-worth]

also, we have never wormed them. I just saw her poop again and just a little runny white bile looking stuff. From not eating enough? I tried to feel for impacted crop but don't know if i could tell the difference. hers is slightly harder than the others which are round and squishy like a water balloon. still not doing much but did peck at one of the others when i was checking her crop for comparison. Jealousy? She has always done this so nice to see a little spunk and normal behavior.

 

[threehorses]

Did this hen's crop ever go down by the way?

I'd definitely say after reading this that your hen also has a higher calcium need.

I'd like to talk to you about diet. All the ingredients of the diet are appropriate and well chosen. The one concern I have is the percentage of grains to the laying feed. How much would you say of each you give?

Any time I see anything less than a good solid egg with possibly a few calcium deposits, I always analyze my feed. IN your case, were I feeding what you are, I'd make good and sure that the laying pellets became 95% of the diet and all the good conditioning grains (and you have excellent taste in those) were moved back down to 5-10% of the diet if they were offered in greater than 10% of the diet, say free choice.

For the barred rock, I would halve a tums tablet and make a wet mash of that, yogurt, and laying pellets (perhaps a little yolk of a boiled egg) and give that to her - just enough mash to carry the tums so you know she gets it all.

Soft shelled eggs can pass - but they are more likely to stick as you have seen with your girl. What concerns me is that if cal/phos levels aren't adjusted quickly, she might entirely forgo giving the eggs any shells and start to retain them and get peritonitis from the eggs not passing out of her body. The symptoms she's showing now concern me for that reason.

Additionally, because you're seeing flies, I would try to adjust the ground. I personally really like using sand on top of soil in bare areas because the moisture drains out of it more readily creating a dry ground. Dry ground means that parasite larvae, bacteria, and cocci have to try harder to survive. Dryness kills things. Soil preserves and encourages bacteria, parasite eggs, and cocci oocysts. That will also help with your flies.

Incidentally, getting one of the stinky flytrap bags really helps in a poultry yard. The nasty stuff inside the bag is even more tempting to the flies than cecal poops! That will also help prevent any disease spreading by the flies, and more importantly will keep away botulism-causing maggots.

On the worming, I would get her in shape first. But then I would worm everyone in a two-step process as you're not sure what the worm load of your flock could be. (You will rarely see worms in droppings, even if birds have a good infestation of them.)

On the worming, I'd recommend wazine first as it will kill a good deal of the adult roundworms without necessarily risking shock or blockage as the paralyzed worms leave the system. Then in 2-4 weeks, worm everyone with a stronger wormer that gets both adults and larvae. Ivermectin (pour-on, injectable given orally, or horse paste) or Fenbendazole ("SafeGuard" horse and cattle paste) are two good choices that kill adults and larvae as your follow up. It's safe to use them after a first worming with wazine because wazine removes mostly adult roundworms but not necessariy strongly anything else. The stronger wormer then can kill all that is left that it effects, and will kill certain stages of larvae to help stop the cycle of reinfestation.

I always use wazine first if:
- the bird has an unknown worming history or has never been wormed
- any birds are shedding worms
- a bird hasn't been wormed in over 6 months
- birds under 4 months of age.

OK so a summary:

First, adjust the grains down to correct any possible cal/phos issues.
Give a tums to the ill hen while you evaluate her condition
Buy some penicillin and get ready to use it soon if she doesn't improve notably tonight. (3-4 days of injections)
Work on drying up the ground
(When the hen is well) worm with wazine and follow up in 2-4 weeks with ivermectin or fenbendazole

I hope this helps!

 

[rc-worth]

THank you so much for responding!! Sorry i've taken a while to give an update.

She is acting normally and no more evidence of soft eggs. I'm not certain that she has laid anything though. We have 3 brown egg layers and I've had a hard time tracking who's egg belong to who. I think her crop is ok.

I think I was probably giving them too much grain. I had mixed it in to their pellets thinking it would be good for them. I also don't entirely trust the processed food and wanted to add something more "whole". Our neighbor loves to bring them oatmeal. Do you think I should have her stop for awhile? Also, it takes me a while to go through a 50# bag of pellets with only 5 birds. Do you think it looses too much of the nutrients?

I gave the Barred Rock the tums mixture once. Then a few times I made them all a mix of pellets, buttermilk, yogurt, egg, and codliver oil. They seem to like it. Should I keep doing this? Should I be giving them vitamins?

Our soil is already pretty sandy and drains well but I will try the fly paper. Do you lime the run ever?

I'm not sure about worming them. I need to look into that a little more. Do you know any more natural methods?

Another thing I have noticed this week is that the barred rock seems to be dropping feathers. She doesn't look bare at all but I keep seeing her feathers around and when I pick her up sometimes a few fall out. they are short like breast or bum feathers. Could she be molting now? Our white leghorn also all of a sudden has a bare spot under her vent?? I haven't seen anyone picking and I did check them well for mites and lice recently . . . . Any thoughts? Could it be associated with the calcium? the leghorns eggs usually have calcium deposits on the shell.

another concern . . . I live in an area with a lot of older homes so there is often elevated levels of lead in the soil around buildings. i worry and wonder if they are picking up lead in all the soil they must eat in their foraging. it could potentially effect their health and our health if it is transferred into the eggs. have you ever heard anything about this?

thats all i can think of for now.

thank you so much for your help with this!!!

rachel

 

[threehorses]

I completely understand about wanting to give something more whole! (That's actually how I learned about calcium problems ages ago myself). If you keep the amount less than 5-10% of their diet, good grains are actually beneficial. They provide fiber, help reduce feather picking, can add condition or weight or both, feather sheen, etc. So they do play a part - particularly nice grains. Scratch I still feel should be given only a little because milo isn't your best grain. But cracked corn, hard wheats, whole unhulled oats, etc - they're lovely. I've even given some gamecock (not gamebird) grains as part of the 5-10%. I personally like whole-oats because they're just a nice feed, but it'd take you ages to feed them unless you know a horse person who can let you have some of theirs.

On the feed, I really do try to go through a bag in a month. Over 6 weeks they do start to degrade. But if you store them really rather nice, they might last you.

On the codliver oil, just give it twice a week - not more often now. The other stuff you can give as often as you feel. It's more about lowering the grains' phorphorus likely than it is about the D. They should be getting most of their vitamins through their complete feed of course, but giving them vitamins occasionally on a schedule you set (like once a week, etc) can help to prevent any deficiencies and make sure everything's up to par. I've heard dlhunicorn recommend Aviacharge and looked it up - it looks really wonderful. That might be a good one to buy.

I've limed coops (as ours were old horse stalls on top of clay) but I hadn't personally used lime. I've heard of others using agricultural lime but I couldn't say one way or another personally. I always covered mine up heavily with some clean new sand and shavings.

On the worming, I don't know of any methods that I could say that would work if you have an infestation. Some people are recommending VermX. I am about to write them to figure out if they're claiming that it treats specific parasites at specific life stages and treats in infestation levels, but I have yet to see anything that says that. Their site is worded cleverly to say it worms, and some worms it effects, but not that it treats. Definitely if you ever seen worms, at least use Wazine and repeat as required. The sandy soil also helps as worms do worse in dry sand than in top soil.

In the mean time, you could try the cayenne and/or DE (food grade only). I'm about to put both back into practice here in hopes of MAYbe having an effect on a certain cecal worm about which I'm concerned. But I still will be worming at least twice a year.

Now the feather dropping - that might be why she's not laying. If she's replacing feathers (another reason that lower grains are better than higher - protein) then she won't lay. They don't drop them all at once - they start in one area and move along their body. That's how you can tell where in the molt they are and how far along.

On your leghorn, do you see her sitting the nest? And yes - calcium is needed for feathering, but protein more so. Both are lowered by high grains in a feed. The highest commonly used grain grains average 12% protein for a good year, 10-11% on the usual year now days. Scratch is more like 8-9% - chickens molting need around 20%. Laying is 16-20%.

And lead is a concern. It's possible that they're picking it up. Some studies at Iowa state U imply that chickens aren't as sensitive to lead as other animals are. So that's good news. You might be able to submit feces for testing at an extension if you have a concern. Or better yet - the soil in your area. Some people in areas with older housing have been talking about this and that seems to be the way they're handling it. It would be a good peace of mind!

 

[rc-worth]

i spoke too soon. there were two soft eggs yesterday. one in the morning and one in the evening. could they both be from the barred rock if they had gotten backed up or might I have another one short on calcium? she is still acting normally . . . . Do you think i should give her another half a tums? i dont know if she or the leghorn are molting. i dont really know how to tell. the leghorn has been laying almost daily and not sitting on the nest for an unusually long time.

i give them a splash of apple cider vinegar in their water. could this be making the eggs soft . . . like pickles?

how much cayenne and DE to you give them and how? i got some DE for their dust bath but have been a little intimidated to use it. i dont want them to inhale too much.

on the lead, we had our soil tested before we moved in and we do indeed have lead. i had some salad greens tested this summer and they had picked some up (1 ppm i think--whatever that means). I should have the chickens poop tested and maybe their eggs as well to see how much they are picking up. i dont know what i'll do about it though if they test high. the only thing to do i think would be to build an enclosed permanent run and bring in 6 inches or so of clean fill. right now we move them around the yard. the united states banned lead paint long after other countries recognized its toxicity and banned it. now, years later, a lot of people are stuck with contaminated soil. what a drag . . .

thanks again!!

 

[threehorses]

Sounds like two hens. ANd no - the acv won't do that, but use 1 teaspoon per gallon. A splash might be too much.

I'd give another half tums. Did you switch them to mostly layer yet? 95%? Did they take the oyster shell?

The cayenne I'm not sure yet how much to use. I'd think a sprinkle in each feeding. DE (food grade only) I'd use less than 2% of the total weight of feed. Personally I stopped using the DE in the feed as I saw no different with or without in my flock. On the dust bath, just sprinkle it in the dust - stir it in.

I'd get their poop tested since you know the soil has it. And yes - maybe make their main run a different fill, or better yet - sand. It drains well, the dryness of it is heck on bacteria and parasites. Then just let them free range less.

 

[rc-worth]

yes, i havent given them any grain in the last couple weeks. they are getting layer pellets, kitchen scraps, whatever they can find in their run, and the special calcium rich mixes i've been making. i am making sure to keep their oyster shell bowl full and have sprinkled it around the run. hard to say how much they have eaten though.

i like the dryness theory with the sand but i think they may go crazy with nothing to forage. they are spoiled by fresh ground. they started feather pecking last winter partially because they were so darn bored so i am nervous to take that away from them because i DON'T want them to start that again. maybe sand with straw, leaves, compost, etc on top? i'm going to check out a neighbors enclosed run this week. she uses this "deep litter" type system and says it works well and keeps them busy.

i'll try another tums and look into the lead test. i've heard that cayenne can stimulate laying. have you heard this?

thanks for sticking with this!

 

[threehorses]

A well done deep litter system can be good. You use scratch to keep them turning it, only a little so that they get every piece. If you want to try sand, then hang up something every other day - a broccoli 'tree', a cabbage head, etc. You can even hang chains. I give my chickens whole unhulled oats (horse oats) to give them a little extra fiber to prevent picking; I just make it part of the healthy 10% of treats.

I've used the deep litter system and I liked it a lot.

 

[rc-worth]

i tried to give the tums yesterday but they were not very cooperative so don't know how much they really ate. gave to all 3 brown egg layers since i dont know which besides the barred rock is having the trouble. we'll see if they got enough down to make a difference.

we tried hanging all sorts of things when they were confined to the indoor coop last winter. they were unfortunately only vaguely interested. liked bunches of kale the best. maybe our chickens are weird