Sorry horse people--'nother question

[miss_thenorth]

Ok, so I'm totally confused. this bit is a three piece. It has a copper spinner to give him something to mouth in the middle, and I was also told the three pieces made it clearer for him to understand the left rein, right rein etc. It is a thick bit, so it does not seem uncomfortable to him. She said it was a "kind" bit.

He responds exceptionally well, as we have ridden him for about three hours today and about an hour yesterday when he came home. He is a totally different horse than the one who left here a month ago. We couldn''t even walk him on a lead rope before he left. He broke three halters in his first week of training.

She was the kind of trainer who let us come and visit and watch whenever we wanted, so I am not concerned about her training techniques.

I was fine with the bit, having used it on our 8 yo QH, but started looking online to purchase one( since it was borrowed). thats when I read mixed reviews about it. Is iut not a akind bit?

I will take pics tomorrow when we saddle him up again.

I am "new " to horses (las two years), so am still very green myself. So I need to learn. I am surprised at the reaction over this bit. She told me it was a pelham training bit, so I could buy one for ourselves.

I obviously will use this bit as it is what he is used to, but if it is better for me to use a different one, I will switch at an appropriate time.

Like I said, I will post pics of this bit tomorrow.
Thanks

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
It would help a lot if you could post links to online pics (or when you get your own pics) of the actual bit.

The problem IMO with a pelham is not that it is cruel or unkind per se (ANY bit can be, if used badly, and there aren't all *that* many bits IMO that someone with good hands and a good seat couldn't use 'kindly' on a well-trained horse - tho I think there are some).

THe reactions you're getting here to starting a baby in a pelham probably stem from roughly two things. First, part of its action is leverage, which is not something that one should really be doin' on a green horse (especially not a *two* year old!) because they are very, very apt to be physically (and often mentally) incapable of responding correctly and thus learn a bunch of really bad habits instead. I am not talking about obvious really bad habits like killing the rider; I am talking about things like dropping behind the bit that are very subtle but very very hard to fix later on.

And secondly, a pelham is not an effective (clear message) leverage bit ANYway, bcause the joint in the mouthpiece means that when the curb rein is applied, you do not get consistant rotation of the bit, what you get is a kind of wiggling and flopping and flexing sort of action that combines a sort of confusingly watered-down and 'noisy' leverage with some of the action of the snaffle. Thus, you can't separate the action of the curb and snaffle with a pelham. Note that this is less of an issue in snaffles whose mouthpiece has only *slight* flexion (I'm thinking of most of the Myler line, here).

Please understand that when we express concern over training techniques we are not suspecting that bricks or cattleprods are being used

There are LOTS AND LOTS of kind, friendly, open-to-having-clients-watch trainers whose horses never have bucking fits or anything like that... who just kind of really do not know how to properly start a horse and can really screw a horse up. Calmly and in a friendly way

I am not saying this is necessarily true of the person you sent your horse to, I'm just explaining that THAT is what people are concerned about.

Personally, and this is about 35 years of riding and training experience talking here, I am pretty leery of the whole business of starting a two year old (worse, a two year old draft cross) for a ten-year-old relative novice (no matter how many years she has been riding, if she has not ridden lots and lots of different horses she is a relative novice) in a pelham. Not on the basis of theory but because I have seen this done time and time again and I *know* where it fairly often (not always, but fairly often) goes. So please understand that this isn't mistrust, it's genuine concern for things that are not necessarily obvious (or even discernable) to someone fairly new to horses.

Looking forward to seeing the bit,

Pat

 

[miss_thenorth]

When I looked online for pics, I saw nothing like the one we are using. So maybe it is not a pelham--maybe she was wrong about the name of it.

Pat, thanks for your input! . Please critique, and also reccommend a bit if you think this is not acceptable.

Thanks!

 

[seminolewind]

Looks more like a grazing bit than a pelham. A pelham has straight bars to the reins. A grazing bit has bent back bar to the reins. It looks like a mild bit.
The good thing is you can attach a second set of reins to the big D's on the sides and use those as a snaffle, and use the reins that are on there as backup or for transition to a snaffle. Just try to use the "snaffle" set more and more. Do alot of circles, turns, serpentines, and something I do where I just randomly turn, circle, stop, loops change direction wherever I want to teach the horse response to YOU and listen for your cue. Be sure to turn your head first to give the horse some idea of where you're going. That should do it for simple starting exercises. It's a good place to start.
You have a pretty mild bit there, unlike a pelham. It has swept back sides to the reins, and it is a three part bit instead of a 2 part bit, meaning kinder pressure in his mouth.
Oh yea, when starting turns, in the beginning, move your arm out to the side instead of back, with your other hand keep it right above the front tip of the saddle.

 

[patandchickens]

Ok. Yes, that is a pelham (one with swept-back shanks, but a pelham nonetheless) = a bit with a jointed mouthpiece and two places to attach reins - one attachment point that makes it basically jsut a snaffle and another attachment point at the end of the shanks that people sometimes like to imagine will function like a curb (leverage) but doesn't *really*, as per my earlier post.

Attach the reins to the SNAFFLE rather than shank position, and it becomes more or less just a snaffle with slightly-annoying-distracting extra attachments (the weight of the shanks and the mvmt of the curb chain).

I am strongly opposed to starting a young horse with ANY attempt at a leverage bit, which includes the way this one is currently fitted out (with reins only on the shanks) -- but I would suggest riding the horse a few times with the bridle set up exactly as the trainer had it, to make sure everyone is on the same wavelength and the horse will go ok for you and such. If all is well after three or four rides, I would personally switch the reins to the snaffle position (and probably remove the curb chain altogether, since it will then do absolutely nothing). If all remains well after a few weeks, just go find a nice comparable SNAFFLE to ride in. The horse is not remotely educated-enough to ride in a curb anyhow.

If he should have issues with fooling with the bit in his mouth too much (always twiddling and shifting it around, not just sometimes casually but as a full-time intense hobby) you might want to find a mouthpiece without the central roller - the copper plus roller plus extra mobility of having 3 segments can make some horses fussy-mouthed. I'm not saying you *will* have this problem, I'm just saying, if it should happen, you know?

Please make sure the throatlatch is loose enough - it looks rather tight in the photo. You should be able to fit four fingers SIDEWISE (i.e. edge-on -- the large dimension) between the throatlatch and the horse's gullet. If it is too tight, it discourages the horse from flexing at the poll.

Finally, that tie-down (martingale) is attached to the HALTER, right, not the curb? (just checkin')

Hope this helps,

Pat

 

[ninjapoodles]

The only way I've ever used a Pelham is with two sets of reins, and I reserved it mostly for foxhunts and cross-country riding, situations in which my normally very submissive horse could get excited and strong. I liked having the option of whether or not to engage the curb portion of the bit, and I rarely did. I had another horse, an older stallion who'd been trained in a curb his whole life, on whom I used a Pelham to show him in hunter classes--but again, he was "on" the snaffle portion, with the curb rein just being lightly tweaked with my little fingers every now and again to keep him engaged. If he hadn't been trained in a giant curb with a cathedral port before he came to me, even that wouldn't have been necessary. It took me years to train that horse "down" to a snaffle.

My bit of choice is a French-link, especially since my horses tend to have low palates (a breed trait). This way nothing is poking the roof of their mouth. For Western horses, we tend to start (and show) them in a bosal until they're 4 or 5, then gradually transition through snaffle and finally a curb for a finished Western Pleasure horse. From what I've observed over the years, lots of people who use "a lot of bit" are doing so in place of training.

I personally hate tie-downs and martingales, especially on babies, but that's just a personal thing. I've seen them abused so much, and, again, used in place of actual training. I've also seen horses hit them hard and fight them hard enough to flip over. Not a fan of the tie-down.

 

[Bi0sC0mp]

i like to ride my horses with no bit just a halter and reins is what i like to use but if i do use a bit i like the hackamore..

 

[menageriemama]

A jointed snaffle bit is really the best bit to use unless your very, very good trainer has a very, very good reason why you should'nt. I like D rings or eggbutts. I showed all the way through preliminary level eventing, did mini-prix show jumping and showed through third level dressage with a snaffle. The ONLY time I ever had to use anything other than a snaffle bit was when I was doing cross country on my Irish Sporthorse who had been a steeplechaser before I bought him. Then and only then, did I use a kimberwicke. Please use the mildest bit that you can for your horse

eta spelling

 

[seminolewind]

This is a grazing bit with the swept back shanks, and roller. The more swept back the shanks, the milder the bit is.

This is a pelham. Straight shanks

 

[ninjapoodles]

That second pic is, yes, the Pelham that I'm most familiar with. But I think that the one in the top pic technically counts, too. Yes, it has "grazing" shanks, BUT it is designed to have reins attached for snaffle action, curb action, or both, which is how I'd define a "Pelham."

I guess I would call it a Pelham-style bit with grazing shanks.