St. John's Wort

[chooks4life]

Thank you . Yes, we bred them here. But weirdly, her grandmother is the oldest hen in the flock, she's 9.

Not so weird at all, I'd personally rebreed her parents and see if this crops up again, and if it does, cull out those lines, probably including the grandmother. (Could just mean you stop breeding from them and keep them as pets rather than kill or rehome).

Sounds quite harsh probably but there's a very good chance her genetics are partially at fault here, if indeed it is a genetic issue.

I had a certain male, and a certain female, both healthy, neither of which ever produced offspring with any health issues with a wide array of other mates, completely unrelated to one another, but when bred together --- acute avian leukosis virus in all the pullets of a certain phenotype. They were so riddled with cancer that they died before puberty, they started suffering under a month old but it only became obvious a bit later.

After enough cases of that, I rooted out that direct family tree, even though I still have some less related members of both family trees. I just got rid of the grandfather, grandmother, father, mother, and their various offspring. The issue left the flock with them. I may have been overly strict but not having to see more chooks suffer like that, specifically not breeding more chooks to suffer like that, is more than worth it.

All the other birds in that family tree were healthy, it was just a certain bad genetic match they made together, reliably as anything.

I still have the sister of the mother of those diseased pullets, she's over a decade old now and still healthy. Go figure. Still laying regularly, brooding, looks in fine health.

I ate the father but rehomed the mother of those ALV cases as a foster mother, still in perfect health, just explained why she was being rehomed to the future owner and ensured she went to someone who knew the risks and wouldn't breed her.

So here's my question, and I may post a separate thread, also, but this is baffling me, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

This pullet, Peaches, is 4 mos old. Her sister was Peanut, the pullet I described most recently in this thread. So when Peaches started acting weak and sitting down to eat this past Saturday, I thought she probably had Marek's too. But, she is different. I pulled her and put her in a hospital pen and started her on Hypericum, and Rooster Booster liquid K & B concentrate, this past Saturday.. She improved immediately.

I'd take that as a sign it's working probably and keep doing it for at least a week. Lessening of symptoms of course isn't healing of symptoms, not overnight, generally.

The only symptoms she's really shown though, are weakness, a slight listing to the left, a balance problem, and seizures. She's had seizures twice, both in the morning, after eating and having her vitamins. she had such a big improvement from Saturday that this morning I decided not to give her Hypericum, and just gave her vitamins with her breakfast. But she had a seizure, or convulsion, whatever you want to call it, half an hour after she ate. So I gave her Hypericum at noon. When I've cjhecked on her this afternoon, she's been acting more or less normal, a little slow, but has full use of her legs, powerful wing action from both wings, scratching in her bedding, and none of the symptoms Peanut had. Her only problem is the balance and seizures. I have started treating her a lot earlier than I started treating Peanut, and I still think it's probably Marek's, maybe she has a lesion in a different part of her body, or whatever, but I'm just not sure.

Getting a vet to do some tests out of the question?

I noticed that she has lice, or probably lice, (although I haven't seen any) she's scratching. I haven't noticed her using the communal dust bath before she got sick, so it's not surprising. But could lice cause this? And if so, how should I treat them since I can't use meds with the Hypericum?

First you'd need to find out if she even has lice. She's showing neurological symptoms and any sort of sensation can be part of that. Humans with neurological issues often feel phantom tickling, itching, burning, and so forth without there being anything external to cause it. 'Skin crawling' is one very common issue with 'upset' nerves, but the tickling could also be reduced or improved circulation, or nerve health going in either direction.

Personally I use raw garlic in the diet, works quite well. A clove or two per chook every two days or so should do it but you can go longer stretches, but depends how bad the infestation is, and how infested the environment is.

The wild birds brought me some northern fowl mites in the last place and they are truly horrible compared to normal mites, but as long as I keep up with the garlic, not an issue.

Lapsing in garlic is an issue, they breed at a insane rate, every female producing around 100 000 eggs a week, all reaching maturity in a week... You can imagine how quickly they could kill a whole flock. The official advice is to 'burn the coop to the ground and start over' because of how hard they are to eradicate!

One week off garlic can result in hundreds of thousands of mites, but feeding garlic has an immediate impact, within a few hours of a garlicked feed the mites pretty much vanish, the population dies down about 95 to 99%, and it's just a matter of keeping regular enough to kill the remainder, which has been an issue in moving house etc.

The wild birds around here are crawling with them and keep bringing them in, lol. I've never seen so many sick wild birds in one area before. The mites are the least of their problems.

I have DE, ashes, Insectrin. Peaches does not like being handled much, even though she loves to ride on our shoulders. She fights and struggles and is quite strong wnenever we handle her, I'm sure it doesn't help her neuro issues. I have to wrap her in a towel to give her the Hypericum. I do think the hypericum, the vitamins, or a combination of both, are helping, so, I'm reluctant to stop giving her those things just yet.

Seizures are far more likely to kill her, as are aggressive viral cancers, than lice or mites. Does depend what sort of parasites you're dealing with but I'd be more worried about the internal dangers than the external ones. If you genuinely have a mite or louse problem you will know when you handle her, almost as a rule, but close inspection can help if in doubt.

Any thoughts on this??? Also, I want to get a fecal sample, jic, but I haven't found any! Well, I found one the other day, but didn't keep it. Her droppings are hard, dry, and small. (???)

Dehydration, but why is another issue entirely. Could be due to an awful lot of things.

Do you know whether she was even drinking normally before you noticed issues? If there is another issue like renal failure or something making her averse to drinking, or unable to drink, that could also result in seizures.

Best wishes.

 

[chicknmania]

It is just weird. Today she (knock on wood) looks worlds better. Bright eyed, hungry. Droppings normal now. I added the vitamin concentrate to her water, as well as putting some in her food, yesterday. We gave her the Hypericum yesterday at noon, and again last night before we went to bed. Have not given her any Hypericum today, because of her general upswing. (You're supposed to stop it if they improve). I was out there for a half hour this morning, to keep an eye on her. No seizures, which have happened both times shortly after she ate. Her scratching has slowed, she just seems to groom normally now as they all do. The only thing is, she's a little slow and tentative in walking.
I plan to keep her in hospital pen until at least Saturday, and if she continues to improve, we will switch her to a bigger pen with perches and more space, just to make sure she gets around ok, and can fly, before we let her out with the flock again.

Friend suggested that it may have been a moldy feed issue, which is hard to believe, since none of the other 49 birds showed any symptoms at all. But I wonder, because I bought a bag of cracked corn to mix with the regular feed, about 10 days ago. I bought it from another feed store besides the usual. The feed was coarse cut corn, which had bits of stalk in it, and lots of chaff, I've never seen it sold that way before. It smelled great though, like fresh corn, and the birds seemed to like it very much, so I didn't worry about it. But maybe it did have something in it...I'm not getting it again. It's gone, and they have Purina feed now, and mixed grain from our mill. Weird, but I don't think it was the feed...just sort of coincidental.

This is a confusing case because....she does not have classic Marek's symptoms, whereas Peanut did. I've never had a bird who had seizures before, although I'm guessing it COULD be a symptom of Marek's, of course. But she has no paralysis at this point, or the one leg forward, one leg back thing, that you often see in more typical Marek's cases. She has powerful full use of her wings, and legs work too. If she's improving, and if she continues to improve, from anything we did, it would be hard to say, if it's the Hypericum, vitamins, or both, that contributed anything to that, though I would have to say they are helping at this point anyway....of course, she can always decline again, so it's way too early to say much yet.

That is interesting about the genetics and your experience. We haven't had that number of cases, as you did, and really, I'd be reluctant to cull...keeping as pets (especially Grandma Onyx) would probably be the option I'd take, unless it becomes a more serious problem. I'll keep it in mind.

 

[chicknmania]

Oh, and yes she appears to be drinking normally. I haven't noticed any bugs on her at all, so I think you're right about the neuro sensations. I feed them garlic once in a while, and add to their water...some like it, some don't, which is why I don't do it more often. It does seem to help. Springtime is the worst for external parasites here..I just gave them garlic the other day, actually, in their water.

 

[chooks4life]

I forgot you're giving them homeopathic hypericum not hypericum perforatum the herb itself. If using the herb I'd keep using it for longer even if symptoms ceased.

Hope she recovers fully. There's always mystery cases, lol.

Best wishes.

 

[chicknmania]

Thanks. Yes, I'm using the Hypericum Perforatum, but in the OP's instructions here, it says to stop using it once there's an improvement, if you look back to the very first post. You're supposed to start it up again, if they decline. Anyway, I'll see how she is today, last night she was acting perfectly normal, so I didn't give her anything.

 

[chicknmania]

Well, that's strange, too. I just went back and looked, and now I can't find that part of the instructions! I know it's in here somewhere....

 

[chicknmania]

here it is.

Originally Posted by CluckyCluck

As soon as you see a sign of improvement with homeopathic remedies, you should stop immediately.

Getting a vet to do some tests out of the question?

Yes, I can't afford it right now. Avian vets are ridiculous in pricing. Our regular vet will do fecal, but that's all.

She's backslid slightly, so Chooks4Life, I'm going to go ahead and re-start treatment with the Hypericum Perforatum. She's a little staggery, and off balance. Yesterday I didn't notice that. I'll go ahead and keep giving her the HP this time. I do like to document these things, not only for myself, but maybe it will help someone else. I wish more people would document their experiences with the hp. Just out of curiosity, you know?

 

[chicknmania]

I dropped her to the floor from a distance of six inches this morning. Used her wings, landed. No staggering. Just looked surprised.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote:
Good luck with that. I also wish more people would document their experiences, and given time, I bet they will. I'd also bet there's a heck of a lot of fence-sitters lurking this thread, hoping they never have to resort to something like this, but taking notes just in case.

Good to hear she's a bit better recently.

Best wishes.

 

[chicknmania]

I just don't know what to do at this point. She was improving to the point that I was considering putting her in the big tractor today. Then, yesterday, I noticed her a little wavery.
We gave her HP last night, and this morning she's backslid more. Stumbled twice and fell I'm just confused as to why you're supposed to stop the HP once they show improvement. Would it
reverse the recovery process if you use it too long? Seems that it wouldn't, as you can also use it for pain control, from what i've read. Gah.

She's very strong and very bright, so I'm still hoping that she will continue to recover, but it's maddening!