Starter vs. Grower feed?

[PoultryCQ]

Thank you both! Such helpful information - does anyone have a specific food them wouldn't mind recommending?

Well, I find Purina to be the most stocked in my local feed store. I use purina gamebird starter for my quail, purina medicated chick feed for my chicks, and purina non medicated chick feed for my adult chickens if there is no All flock. I tend to like to stick with large brands that constantly restock.

 

[Danielpn]

That figure, 16% protein, as a minimum level for chickens was decided by a committee in Washington D.C. that read about chickens in a book. It may have been "Chicken Little."
If you Google percent protein in a chicken egg, you learn the chicken is developing eggs containing around 35% protein. Simple logic tells us that a high protein diet may be required for any sustained production.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

That figure, 16% protein, as a minimum level for chickens was decided by a committee in Washington D.C. that read about chickens in a book. It may have been "Chicken Little."
[...]

...While that's not remotely true, the studies from whence the 16% figure came were mostly conducted late 60s, early 70s, and like all studies, you have to understand their limitations and assumptions. Which involved commercial leghorns of that time, commercial "battery" management practices, and the limits of feed manufacture of the time, as well as the pont of the study - to determine the cheapest minimum feed requirement to support young leghorn layers in those conditions, below which economic losses due to low nutrition exceeded economic gains from feed savings. Its where the 4% calcium figure comes from, too.

Since that time, the genetics of leghorns have advanced, feed science has advanced, artificial sources of numerous potentially critical feed additions are much more economically viable. As well, most of us have other than commercial leghorns, and few (if any) of us are raising them in anything like battery hen management practices of the 70s.

For what its worth, our freinds across the pond in the EU routinely feed their flocks considerably lower protein feeds whan we in the US do, and do it successfully. They do so thru numerous additions to the feed to compensate for the higher costs of plant-based proteins there. Here in the US, I'm firmly in the camp of recommending 18-20% protein feeds, with free choice calcium (oyster shell) for the typical backyard flock under typical backyard management practices.

 

[Danielpn]

...While that's not remotely true, the studies from whence the 16% figure came were mostly conducted late 60s, early 70s, and like all studies, you have to understand their limitations and assumptions. Which involved commercial leghorns of that time, commercial "battery" management practices, and the limits of feed manufacture of the time, as well as the pont of the study - to determine the cheapest minimum feed requirement to support young leghorn layers in those conditions, below which economic losses due to low nutrition exceeded economic gains from feed savings. Its where the 4% calcium figure comes from, too.

Since that time, the genetics of leghorns have advanced, feed science has advanced, artificial sources of numerous potentially critical feed additions are much more economically viable. As well, most of us have other than commercial leghorns, and few (if any) of us are raising them in anything like battery hen management practices of the 70s.

For what its worth, our freinds across the pond in the EU routinely feed their flocks considerably lower protein feeds whan we in the US do, and do it successfully. They do so thru numerous additions to the feed to compensate for the higher costs of plant-based proteins there. Here in the US, I'm firmly in the camp of recommending 18-20% protein feeds, with free choice calcium (oyster shell) for the typical backyard flock under typical backyard management practices.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you for clarifying.

you have more trust in "top men" reading books than I. 16% at least resembles a chicken appropriate diet.

Thus far, the top gov't men can't settle on an appropriate diet for us!!

 

[Danielpn]

you have more trust in "top men" reading books than I. 16% at least resembles a chicken appropriate diet.

Thus far, the top gov't men can't settle on an appropriate diet for us!!

You give me too much credit. I'm just a smart a-- attempting to inject a little humor into a situation. I appreciate your more scholarly reply, which I did thoroughly read and enjoy, taking mental notes. Can you tell me the value of feeding laying hens red worms (not meal worms). I have been salting my run with red wigglers in the evening, after the hens go to roost. The smart worms go to ground and do worm things, the less smart worms meet my killer hens in the morning. Over time, I hope to establish a viable, breeding colony of worms in the run, for the hens to snack on. The run is 15' x 35', 1/2 is covered, 1/2 open to the rain. I have 15 hens. I am putting about 100 worms a week into the same general area of the run. What do you think?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

i think i'd have to do some researxh before anawering that.

/edit ^^^ is why I shouldn't type on a cell phone.

Ok, first, treats shouldn't exceed 10% of daily diet by weight. Your worm feeding program doesn't sound like its at risk of violating that guide. I also like that you are selecting out the stupid worms.

What I've found so far is that red worms are about 85% water, 10.5% protein, 2% fat. Apparently, they are being considered as an alternative to fish meal.

Our USDA, citing other studies, provides limiting amino acid profiles for broilers and layers (respectively), in order of (hatching - adult range), expressed as a % of total diet. High yield broilers (i.e, ConrishX) are about 20% higher, on average.

Amino Acid	Broiler	Layer
Methionine	0.5-0.32	0.3
Lysine	1.1-0.85	0.69
Threonine	0.8-0.68	0.47
Tryptophan	0.2-0.16	0.16
Isoleucine	0.8-0.62	0.65
Arginine	1.25-1.0	0.7
Valine	0.9-0.7	0.7

For comparison, the amino acid content of a red worm (Eisenia fetida) is wildly variable, depending on whose study you want to use, and what they were fed. Averaging a handful of studies, we get these figures (as a % of total protein)

Methionine 1.02%
Lysine 4.5%
Threonine 3.17%
Tryptophan 0.9%
Isoleucine 2.7%
Arginine 4.1%
Valine 2.9%

Now, since red worms are only 10.5% protein, and are mostly water, that means a chicken a single red worm (approx half a gram) gets almost nothing from the experience. Sorry. Most of the studies look at using these dried, and some science has gone into the best temps to dry them at (60C, about 140F, with moving air).

Still, we can do some rough math. An average chicken under average conditions (clearly, doesn't exist) is said to eat 1/4 lb in feed per day. Fer easy math, we'll call that 100g. Since we don't know age, layer or broiler, we'll shoot right down the middle (again, "average bird" hahhahahahaha!). We are seeking (in grams) .4g Methionine, .9g Lysine, .65g Threonine, .18g Tryptophan, .72g Isoleucine, 1.0g Arginine, .8g Valine

That's about 80 red worms per chicken, per day, to meet their limiting amino acid requirements (according to the USDA). The 80 worms match the methionine essentially exactly, provide twice the needed lysine, twice the threonine, twice the tryptophan, 125% of the needed isoleucine, 160% of the needed arginine, and 150% of the needed valine. So really, you want a feed or another suppliment that's high in methionine to reduce their relative red worm needs.

Sunflower seeds (also high protein for their weight, but VERY fatty), Brazil nuts (same), and oats are all good methionine sources. One of them is much cheaper than the others - parts of why its on the ingredient list of many (most) feed bags.

Hope that helps, sorry for the delay.