I have chicks that are possibly Yokohama and phoenix cross.I am guessing the chick I am most interested in is half phoenix due to the fact it is holding its tail at a more upright position.these chicks are about 2 weeks old.I want the feather length from this line but not the tail position.how hard is it to change that if I use this bird to backcross?
tail position
- Thread starter pokey
- Start date
Phoenix should have horizontal or below tail angles. Would be best not to use a bird with upright tail angle if you can avoid it. You will have to breed back to lower tail angled birds and cull. My experience is that if you breed a bird with a high tail angle to a bird with low tail angle the tail angle will be higher than the lower tail angled parent on the chicks. I am curious, you are crossing the two breeds.. What are your goals with this cross. Is it to put more tail on the yokohamas? I have a lot of peacomb phoenix that have good tail angles and recessive whites can be bred to white yokos, but you must mark them to know what the genetics are for future reference.. (as they will be almost identical to white yokohamas..)
Example of good tail angle on a phoenix hen of nonmolting lines
My preference on a nonmolting line
Rooster from good tail angle whites
white cockerel from cross where one parent had a higher than horizontal tail angle
More on tail angle
Some lines of onagadori I have witnessed in photographs have a slightly up tail angle, so it won't effect tail length or nonmolting genes, but does contribute to the overall appearance of the bird. So it is based on ones own preference. I will post a quote from Brian Reeder's book below to explain tail angle. This will help..
Example of good tail angle on a phoenix hen of nonmolting lines
My preference on a nonmolting line
Rooster from good tail angle whites
white cockerel from cross where one parent had a higher than horizontal tail angle
More on tail angle
Some lines of onagadori I have witnessed in photographs have a slightly up tail angle, so it won't effect tail length or nonmolting genes, but does contribute to the overall appearance of the bird. So it is based on ones own preference. I will post a quote from Brian Reeder's book below to explain tail angle. This will help..
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" I have worked extensively with two opposing groups in relation to tail angle: the long tailed fowls with their at or below horizontal tail angles and langshan; chabo, and serama with their nearly or fully vertical tail angles. I have also crossed the two groups a great deal and was able to observe a great number of f1, f2, and later generations as well as many backcrosses in both directions. My results point to several conclusions.
First, it seems that the horizontal tail angle is wild type and below horizontal tails are wild type with modification. In some instances, it seems there is a a genetic modification that pushes the wild type tail below the horizontal. The other factor that affects the wildtype tail is the length of the long tailed genetic complex, which pulls the tail to a level below the horizontal. This is a secondary effect rather than a direct effect.
The factors that I consider mutations upon the wild type horizontal tail are the many variations on tail able above horizontal. It would seem that there are several modifiers that can increase the level of vertical orientation of the tail. We see many variations in the exhibition breeds. I cannot say with certainty if we have one mutation or several causing the various levels of vertical orientation. In my experiments, when an extreme high tail is crossed to horizontal or below, the f1 shows tail angles intermediate to the two parent lines at an angle of about 45 degrees. In the f2 nearly all birds showed either horizontal or 45 degree angle, with only a tiny handful (about 10% over many hundreds of birds from such breedings) showing a tail like the high tailed ancestor line. This is very curious. It would suggest that the high tail angle trait is a quantitative trait. The highest tail bred together should show an incremental increase in percentage of high tailed each generation, taking several generations to reach the full expression of nearly vertical tail angle and breed true. However, if one takes a line of birds which breed true for a 45 degree tail angle and raise large numbers, variation in tail angle may never be seen.
When low tailed birds were bred to above horizontal birds (but not the extreme seen in the very high tailed lines), the low tail was very dominant in the f1, but in the f2, the expected 25% above horizontal tails did not emerge. In fact over many years and many crosses of such lines, this result was consistent, and only a small percentage ever went back to the higher end of the above horizontal tail angle. " BRIAN REEDER
In conclusion, the lower tail will overcome the high tail if you select the lower tail offspring to breed to.. Also if your line has a very full tail, it will pull the higher tail angle down when the length gets on the tail.
First, it seems that the horizontal tail angle is wild type and below horizontal tails are wild type with modification. In some instances, it seems there is a a genetic modification that pushes the wild type tail below the horizontal. The other factor that affects the wildtype tail is the length of the long tailed genetic complex, which pulls the tail to a level below the horizontal. This is a secondary effect rather than a direct effect.
The factors that I consider mutations upon the wild type horizontal tail are the many variations on tail able above horizontal. It would seem that there are several modifiers that can increase the level of vertical orientation of the tail. We see many variations in the exhibition breeds. I cannot say with certainty if we have one mutation or several causing the various levels of vertical orientation. In my experiments, when an extreme high tail is crossed to horizontal or below, the f1 shows tail angles intermediate to the two parent lines at an angle of about 45 degrees. In the f2 nearly all birds showed either horizontal or 45 degree angle, with only a tiny handful (about 10% over many hundreds of birds from such breedings) showing a tail like the high tailed ancestor line. This is very curious. It would suggest that the high tail angle trait is a quantitative trait. The highest tail bred together should show an incremental increase in percentage of high tailed each generation, taking several generations to reach the full expression of nearly vertical tail angle and breed true. However, if one takes a line of birds which breed true for a 45 degree tail angle and raise large numbers, variation in tail angle may never be seen.
When low tailed birds were bred to above horizontal birds (but not the extreme seen in the very high tailed lines), the low tail was very dominant in the f1, but in the f2, the expected 25% above horizontal tails did not emerge. In fact over many years and many crosses of such lines, this result was consistent, and only a small percentage ever went back to the higher end of the above horizontal tail angle. " BRIAN REEDER
In conclusion, the lower tail will overcome the high tail if you select the lower tail offspring to breed to.. Also if your line has a very full tail, it will pull the higher tail angle down when the length gets on the tail.
- Thread starter
- #4
These are some eggs that I put in the incubator with some purchased eggs. I usually do that just so I know the incubator is working as it should and to also test things like fertility here and such. I wanted to see if the two Phoenix hens would produce new color or length, but I don't know their background beyond the roo they came from. They were a gift, so I was just happy someone was so polite. The gentleman that gave them to me was working on diff. combs and colors. Both have smal combs, but one has a nice peacomb and the other is more like a rosecomb. Weird. I can tell you that I go several times a day tocheck them and I noticed that the chick holds its tail at different angles since I posted, so I guess it's still a waiting game. I do need to send you a pic of the pure yoko chick that's white. It's down is different, slightly longer and almost silkied, but not like a silkie. I can't get it to show up on a pic yet. .
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Rosecomb phoenix are wonderful. I love the look of a rosecomb longtail. You could end up creating your own line of silver yokos.. and blue silvers.. I know you like that color. My chicks do that also. It seems like they hold their tails at different angles and different times or depending on whether they are excited or at rest.. They should make some really neat chicks. I hope you will work on the rosecomb longtails. I might be interested in some of those later on.. They are one of my favs..
- Thread starter
- #6
Well, these two hens don't even come close to the volume of feathering yours have. I think the gentleman was working on longtail crele and long crower so the tail position never came into play. I hope the chick in question has the more horizontal angle as its the one that would be lemon blue, if not its already spoken for. My good friend raises quail for several game bird hunt preserves so sh gives me eggs to hatch and release and I trade her chicks to give to her sister who raises seven different breeds of chickens. We also trade garden veggies in the summer.
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It is nice to have neighbors to trade with.. I think that is how it was in the good old days.. Would love to see a pic of the rosecomb hen and chick.. when you get a chance you could post photos to let others know how your progress is coming along.
When they get your ability to upload pics fixed of course.
When they get your ability to upload pics fixed of course.
- Thread starter
- #8
I DON'T GET IT. IT WILL LET ME POST YOUR LINK..
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- Thread starter
- #10
Haha, I know it will drive ya crazy. Apparently those of us that use iPad w safari and some types of phones can't upload pics. I will either have to remove the pop up blocker( ain't gonna happen) or download the tapatalk app. My phone battery is going to last like 5 minutes. Oh, but THANKS!!
I DON'T GET IT. IT WILL LET ME POST YOUR LINK..
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