The Buckeye Thread

[Minniechickmama]

Congrats!!
On your buckeyes taking home a win! It's also nice to see someone who celebrates modestly about a win when going up against very little competition. Your birds are beautiful. Keep those Dark Red Birds in the public eye. Can't wait to see what they look like in a few months.

Thanks. Not personally gratifying to win against no competition. Unless there are a few others to actually compete against, winning something like that is a pretty hollow victory. However, it is good that the breed was represented.

 

[buckeyechicken]

To each their own but if I want to give my chickens supplement in their water I think I will control what they drink and for how long. If someone else wants to do it different then that is what I would do if I were you.

Dan

Dan I don't want to get into an argument but it is a violation to use medication other than the way it is stated on the label. Contrary to what anyone says, Its the law

 

[Pathfinders]

Congratulations in your wins! I have found Mr. Urchs' birds to be valuable additions to my breeding pens. Best of luck with them in the future.

 

[buffalogal]

Congratulations Minnie. I know it's discouraging to show without competition, but on the bright side, you are serving as an Ambassador for the breed, which is always a good thing.

 

[buffalogal]

Thank your for posting this pic. Very good observation. I too have noticed this on my supplements when I read the directions. It's good for people to do their own homework. Rather than taking ONLY the advice of an Internet expert. We should all do our own research and think for ourselves. I think PA Farmer may be owed an apology.

An apology for what? What was said is that "Therapeutic treatments (which electrolytes are not, really) should not be diluted by offering plain water, that reduces the dosage the bird gets, and therefore reduces their effectiveness."

Sav-A-Chik is not therapeutic; it is neither an antibiotic nor dewormer, it is a vitamin/electrolyte mix. That's exactly what she was talking about.

 

[Pathfinders]

There seems to be some confusion about my reply to Dave.

I was trying to explain that one should/can differentiate between things that are used preventatively, such as electrolytes or probiotics, to boost immune systems and assure existing good health; and those things that are used therapeutically, such as antibiotics and de-wormers, which are used to address medical problems in poultry.

As Dave said, electrolytes and as James says, probiotics, may be provided with additional water if desired.

However, de-wormers and antibiotics are, in my experience, always given without additional water. To allow additional water would be to dilute the dosage and reduce the efficacy.

Here's what the bag of Gallimycin I have states:




"To assure effectiveness, treated birds must consume enough medicated water to provide a therapeutic dosage."

If one also provided them with additional water, one would then be diluting the dosage, which would negate the effectiveness of the medication.

Wazine, a popular de-wormer is even more specific. (Note, it's almost impossible to scan in a round bottle. I have included the most important part and will type in the rest.)




The directions read like this: "For best results, remove water in the evening (except during hot weather.) Then, early the next morning, begin water medicated with Wazine-17. Provide medicated water only, distributed in waterers sufficient in number so that all birds or animals have access to water. The medicated water should be consumed in 1 day or less."

So, yes, I agree one should always read the directions for anything of this nature one adds to the diet/water of their birds. But as a general rule, if the item added is a supplement or nutritional booster such as electrolytes or probiotics, one could provide additional water to the birds. But if the item added is meant to have therapeutic results, such as an antibiotic or de-wormer, one must not provide additional water, as that would reduce or negate the efficacy of the item given.

I hope that clarifies my original comments.

 

[buckeyechicken]

An apology for what? What was said is that "Therapeutic treatments (which electrolytes are not, really) should not be diluted by offering plain water, that reduces the dosage the bird gets, and therefore reduces their effectiveness."

Sav-A-Chik is not therapeutic; it is neither an antibiotic nor dewormer, it is a vitamin/electrolyte mix. That's exactly what she was talking

My point is that you need to read the labels on the medication you are giving your stock and probiotic is not electrolytes and sav-a-chick does make and electrolyte and vitamin packet The labels are different in the way they are to be used

 

[Pathfinders]

My point is that you need to read the labels on the medication you are giving your stock and probiotic is not electrolytes and sav-a-chick does make and electrolyte and vitamin packet The labels are different in the way they are to be used

And you are quite right.

My original post, which started this whole discussion however, discussed using apple cider vinegar in water for poultry which were laying thin-shelled eggs, which might or might not have been a sign of poor uptake of calcium. ACV in the water helps with this, in a therapeutic manner. And while it is not a medication per se, and as such doesn't have a label we can read to tell us whether or not we should provide additional, plain water, experience has shown that as a general rule, when using things in a therapeutic manner, it is best to not dilute the dosage by offering additional water.

Dave disagreed with me, and the discussion went on from there. I still stand by my assertion that if you are offering ACV in the water in order to assist in the uptake of calcium, you will negate its efficacy if you also provide plain water.

But since there is no accepted medical literature for that use, I guess we'll have to find a vet to weigh in for us, or go by our current and past experience. In my experience, it is best to not offer any water in this circumstance other than that with ACV in it.

Other supplements and medications, which come with instructions for use, should have those instructions followed, I quite agree on that.

 

[buckeyechicken]

There seems to be some confusion about my reply to Dave.

I was trying to explain that one should/can differentiate between things that are used preventatively, such as electrolytes or probiotics, to boost immune systems and assure existing good health; and those things that are used therapeutically, such as antibiotics and de-wormers, which are used to address medical problems in poultry.

As Dave said, electrolytes and as James says, probiotics, may be provided with additional water if desired.

However, de-wormers and antibiotics are, in my experience, always given without additional water. To allow additional water would be to dilute the dosage and reduce the efficacy.

Here's what the bag of Gallimycin I have states:




"To assure effectiveness, treated birds must consume enough medicated water to provide a therapeutic dosage."

If one also provided them with additional water, one would then be diluting the dosage, which would negate the effectiveness of the medication.

Wazine, a popular de-wormer is even more specific. (Note, it's almost impossible to scan in a round bottle. I have included the most important part and will type in the rest.)




The directions read like this: "For best results, remove water in the evening (except during hot weather.) Then, early the next morning, begin water medicated with Wazine-17. Provide medicated water only, distributed in waterers sufficient in number so that all birds or animals have access to water. The medicated water should be consumed in 1 day or less."

So, yes, I agree one should always read the directions for anything of this nature one adds to the diet/water of their birds. But as a general rule, if the item added is a supplement or nutritional booster such as electrolytes or probiotics, one could provide additional water to the birds. But if the item added is meant to have therapeutic results, such as an antibiotic or de-wormer, one must not provide additional water, as that would reduce or negate the efficacy of the item given.

I hope that clarifies my original comments.

Originally Posted by PA Farmer24

It's my understanding that when giving the birds treated water that you should also make sure that they have plain water as well. I know that back of the packages of electrolytes states this. So with that I recommend that when giving electrolytes or other treatments thru water to make sure you also have just plain waterers filled with just that water.

I dont see anywhere that Dave was talking about Therapeutic treatments, and again read the labels they will instruct you on the right way to give the medication to your stock, Just like the wazine label say hold the water. Not all medications are to be given the same way

 

[buffalogal]

My point is that you need to read the labels on the medication you are giving your stock and probiotic is not electrolytes and sav-a-chick does make and electrolyte and vitamin packet The labels are different in the way they are to be used

It doesn't matter what version of Sav A Chik you use.
Sav-A-ChickÂ

Electrolyte and Vitamin Supplement http://www.savachick.com/product.php?p=125
Sav-A-ChickÂ

Probiotic Supplement http://www.savachick.com/product.php?p=132

Neither one is considered a medication. They are specifically listed by the manufacturer as supplements because you give them in addition to (not in place of) the usual food and/or water. OTOH, a treatment is given specifically to treat a condition such as a disease outbreak or worms. Medication that is given in the water is given in place of all other water until the treated solution is consumed. It's easy to tell them apart; if you're trying to fix a problem, remove all other source of water. If you just want to add something extra, water on the side is fine.