The Buckeye Thread

[Lady of McCamley]

When I was growing out mine I also had turkey poults being brooded in the same brooder. I mixed the game bird starter (30% protein) with the chick starter (18% protein) half and half, and added a tiny amount of fish on a regular basis. The turkeys did fine, and the Buckeye and Speckled Sussex did beautifully, all reaching SOP weights, with no obesity of other "overnutrition" problems.

Has it been 4 weeks already? Hard to believe they're that old. Can you post pictures of each one, especially with good views of their hackles and cape feathers?

Good idea...mixing game starter with the chick feed.

Yes...4 weeks...hard to believe.

I'll try to get some photos up...have been too busy to take pics but this weekend should be calm enough to upload some.
Lady of McCamley

 

[alana124]

I find Jeff Lay's formula to be excellent advice, but my problem is where do I find 50 lb bags of 22-24% chick starter that also contains animal protein? The feed stores in my area have replaced animal protein with plant protein in their formulas which makes it really difficult NOT to serve turkey starter even though the kids have been doing great on that stuff. But I agree with Jeff; they're not turkeys. However, I really like Sydney Acres's blending of game bird and chick starter recipe. Really GOOD idea! Especially since you've had good results.

Can I ask, what type of fish or fish product do you use when adding it as a feed supplement? Would I need it if the chick starter I purchase is 21.8% and game bird starter is 30%? I don't know what to do. Kind of at a loss esp. since my first batch of Buckeyes (even though they're categorized as standard size fowl) look like bantams because I fed them organic feed. Organic feed so far is really not great in terms of nutrients. So I don't know...what do I do?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bethel3330]

@Jeff Lay glad to see you on here. I couldn't remember which Facebook group I'd seen you on.
When we get our second coop built I'm going to get some Buckeyes. I never saw any locally and right now my coop is full, or will be once the brooder's emptied out ;-)
I couldn't make it to Lucasville unfortunately, or else I probably would've brought home all sorts of peeps!

 

[Minniechickmama]

I am having to mix gamebird feed with my layer formula to get it to a higher % for the Buckeyes and Cornish. The ratio comes out to about 1 part GB to 4 parts of the 16% layer.
I have looked at using fish food (pellets) and both kinds I have examined use chicken feathers as their/a protein source. To me, doesn't make sense. I would opt to taking my culls and grinding them into chickenburger and feeding that over feeding feathers. But that is just me. I am looking at how to raise either red worms, meal worms or Black Soldier Flies to feed with my grain as the added protein.
I agree that animal protein is better over all plant, but I am in a situation where the feed I was using, that had animal protein, was lacking in essential vitamins for my Buckeyes.
The thing I think you all need to remember is if you are mixing gamebird with a lower protein, you want to make sure you are not overdosing the birds with protein. Added protein will tax the renal system and start giving you other problems that you didn't ask for. If you don't know the proper mix ratios, contact someone who does. I had the feed rep help me figure out how much to mix. It is basically a matter of averaging. I see some are mixing half and half, and that is excessive.

 

[Sydney Acres]

I find Jeff Lay's formula to be excellent advice, but my problem is where do I find 50 lb bags of 22-24% chick starter that also contains animal protein? The feed stores in my area have replaced animal protein with plant protein in their formulas which makes it really difficult NOT to serve turkey starter even though the kids have been doing great on that stuff. But I agree with Jeff; they're not turkeys. However, I really like Sydney Acres's blending of game bird and chick starter recipe. Really GOOD idea! Especially since you've had good results.

Can I ask, what type of fish or fish product do you use when adding it as a feed supplement? Would I need it if the chick starter I purchase is 21.8% and game bird starter is 30%? I don't know what to do. Kind of at a loss esp. since my first batch of Buckeyes (even though they're categorized as standard size fowl) look like bantams because I fed them organic feed. Organic feed so far is really not great in terms of nutrients. So I don't know...what do I do?

Thanks in advance.

If your goal is 22-24% protein, and your chick starter is already at 21.8% protein, then you probably don't need the game bird starter. Just add a little fish (or really, any kind of meat -- chickens are omnivores and can eat anything -- just cook it for safety issues) and you'll boost that protein up easily.

As far as what type of fish, it probably doesn't matter, as long as it's not rotten. I'm in the Pacific NW, so there's lots of variety here. I eat a lot of fish, and I typically give some leftovers to the chickens as treats. My main breed is Red Dorkings, which are an ancient English Breed. They were around before preformulated chicken food, and were perfected when English farmers fed them scraps and free ranged them. English farmers in that era had a lot of fish, and journals talk about finely chopping up the fish skin, and boiling the fish heads and throwing them out to the chickens as their main protein source. I have pecking issues with my Dorkings when they're not given meat protein (it doesn't matter how high the vegetable protein is, they need meat), so that's what I do. You could probably buy fish heads, or maybe even get them free, from your local fishmonger, if you have someone local, or from a large supermarket. You could also probably use koi food. Just don't overdo the proportions. You only need to boost up the protein a little. You don't want them to grow too fast and get joint problems. If they're freeranging and eating a lot of grass, which probably only has 2-7% protein, depending on where you live and what type of grass you have, then you can give more fish than if they're not free ranging and only eating 21.8% chick crumbles. It's all about the proportions.

Regarding organic vs non-organic foods, I don't want to open up a whole can of worms here, as I know there are very strong feelings about this. Here is the way I look at it. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, so don't send me hate mail like someone did last time. If you disagree, that's fine. But in my opinion, organic is great (I have a 10 acre organic farm), but organic has nothing whatsoever to do with being a balanced diet. And for growing babies, balance is critical. I wish that there was an organic diet out there for my chickens, cats, dogs, etc that I had confidence in, one that I knew was tested and had the perfect nutrient blend. I'd pay double for it. But that doesn't exist. I'd love to support the companies that have all the right marketing labels on their products, but I can't support an organic diet that doesn't support my animals adequately. So for my chickens, I use mostly Purina products, mix in a little NatureSmart (an organic product from Cargill Animal Nutrition, but the birds don't really like the taste as much as the Purina, and I'm still on the fence about it's adequacy), and free range, plus daily garden and/or meat scraps. I use whole oats as grain treats for the birds that I don't want to gain weight, and a local 5-grain plus fish oil scratch grain mix called Winner's Scratch as a grain treat on the birds where weight gain is ok. As far as which Purina product I use, that depends on the age and breed of birds, and how fast I want them to grow. Heritage turkeys need 24-30% protein until 8 weeks, then 20-24% 8-20 weeks. My "high protein" dual purpose chicken breeds (Dorkings, Sussex, Buckeyes) I like 22-24% protein in starter formula, plus a tiny bit of meat, which probably boosts it up another 2-4%, plus free range, which probably brings it down about 4%. I'll customize that a bit if I'm raising them with poults, or keep it like that until the cockerals are ready to change at 12-14 weeks, and the pullets at 18 weeks. I have decreased the total protein down to 18-20% at 8 weeks before, and haven't liked the results as much (this is limited to Dorkings, and is likely different in other breeds).

One thing that is really important to remember is that chickens are VERY adaptable. You're only likely to get into serious trouble if you're feeding only a single food during a critical growth period, and it's not properly balanced. Variety allows for imperfection in feeding, as long as you're meeting their basic needs. Now, if you're feeding to maximize growth or profit or breeding quality, you need to be a bit more focused on the details. But if you just want a nice healthy farm flock, you can be a little flexible, as long as you don't go to far afield.

 

[Sydney Acres]

The thing I think you all need to remember is if you are mixing gamebird with a lower protein, you want to make sure you are not overdosing the birds with protein. Added protein will tax the renal system and start giving you other problems that you didn't ask for. If you don't know the proper mix ratios, contact someone who does. I had the feed rep help me figure out how much to mix. It is basically a matter of averaging. I see some are mixing half and half, and that is excessive.

That was me who recommended the half and half. In that example, Jeff had recommended a 22-24% protein diet. I was using Purina products, with a game bird starter of 30% and a chick starter of 18%. By mixing them in equal parts, you get a 24% final product.

But you make an excellent point. If anyone is not comfortable with the math involved, feed companies have people available to help you. It is very important to be comfortable with the proportions that you are using, and know that you have done the math right, especially when you're not free ranging.

 

[alana124]

If your goal is 22-24% protein, and your chick starter is already at 21.8% protein, then you probably don't need the game bird starter. Just add a little fish (or really, any kind of meat -- chickens are omnivores and can eat anything -- just cook it for safety issues) and you'll boost that protein up easily.

As far as what type of fish, it probably doesn't matter, as long as it's not rotten. I'm in the Pacific NW, so there's lots of variety here. I eat a lot of fish, and I typically give some leftovers to the chickens as treats. My main breed is Red Dorkings, which are an ancient English Breed. They were around before preformulated chicken food, and were perfected when English farmers fed them scraps and free ranged them. English farmers in that era had a lot of fish, and journals talk about finely chopping up the fish skin, and boiling the fish heads and throwing them out to the chickens as their main protein source. I have pecking issues with my Dorkings when they're not given meat protein (it doesn't matter how high the vegetable protein is, they need meat), so that's what I do. You could probably buy fish heads, or maybe even get them free, from your local fishmonger, if you have someone local, or from a large supermarket. You could also probably use koi food. Just don't overdo the proportions. You only need to boost up the protein a little. You don't want them to grow too fast and get joint problems. If they're freeranging and eating a lot of grass, which probably only has 2-7% protein, depending on where you live and what type of grass you have, then you can give more fish than if they're not free ranging and only eating 21.8% chick crumbles. It's all about the proportions.

Regarding organic vs non-organic foods, I don't want to open up a whole can of worms here, as I know there are very strong feelings about this. Here is the way I look at it. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, so don't send me hate mail like someone did last time. If you disagree, that's fine. But in my opinion, organic is great (I have a 10 acre organic farm), but organic has nothing whatsoever to do with being a balanced diet. And for growing babies, balance is critical. I wish that there was an organic diet out there for my chickens, cats, dogs, etc that I had confidence in, one that I knew was tested and had the perfect nutrient blend. I'd pay double for it. But that doesn't exist. I'd love to support the companies that have all the right marketing labels on their products, but I can't support an organic diet that doesn't support my animals adequately. So for my chickens, I use mostly Purina products, mix in a little NatureSmart (an organic product from Cargill Animal Nutrition, but the birds don't really like the taste as much as the Purina, and I'm still on the fence about it's adequacy), and free range, plus daily garden and/or meat scraps. I use whole oats as grain treats for the birds that I don't want to gain weight, and a local 5-grain plus fish oil scratch grain mix called Winner's Scratch as a grain treat on the birds where weight gain is ok. As far as which Purina product I use, that depends on the age and breed of birds, and how fast I want them to grow. Heritage turkeys need 24-30% protein until 8 weeks, then 20-24% 8-20 weeks. My "high protein" dual purpose chicken breeds (Dorkings, Sussex, Buckeyes) I like 22-24% protein in starter formula, plus a tiny bit of meat, which probably boosts it up another 2-4%, plus free range, which probably brings it down about 4%. I'll customize that a bit if I'm raising them with poults, or keep it like that until the cockerals are ready to change at 12-14 weeks, and the pullets at 18 weeks. I have decreased the total protein down to 18-20% at 8 weeks before, and haven't liked the results as much (this is limited to Dorkings, and is likely different in other breeds).

One thing that is really important to remember is that chickens are VERY adaptable. You're only likely to get into serious trouble if you're feeding only a single food during a critical growth period, and it's not properly balanced. Variety allows for imperfection in feeding, as long as you're meeting their basic needs. Now, if you're feeding to maximize growth or profit or breeding quality, you need to be a bit more focused on the details. But if you just want a nice healthy farm flock, you can be a little flexible, as long as you don't go to far afield.

I value all opinions!

I'm an organic farmer too, small scale, and thought feeding the birds organic feed was great until someone commented on how small my 1 year old bucks are. They thought they were bantams. The organic feed by me is so ground down and so powdery the birds choke on it. So I really hate it, and the one brand puts kelp in it, I guess for added protein? I'm floored that Cargill does anything organic being they're a subsidy of Monsanto. I've been hearing more and more about Purina, but quite frankly, I've seen too many dogs eat that stuff and end up with bladder cancer and large lumps. So I stopped feeding the birds organic because so far, they're passe and the birds are not happy with it. They always act starved. I found a great mill run by Mennonites that really surpasses my expectations, so maybe I can ask them for help in terms of mixing. I gotta say, the bucks on turkey starter really have a lot of vigor and energy and I don't see a problem in their joints. So I'm thinking maybe they're okay ( the starter doesn't contain animal protein).

I've been feeding my bucks the eggs I've rejected in cooked scrambled form, freeze dried meal worms, bread, hamburger meat and leftovers. Plus they get an organic scratch that's 8% protein. But I'd like to purchase a fish pellet and wonder do they come in 50 lb bags? As it is, I travel this giant state of NY searching for the best feed mills, etc., and really want a one stop shopping experience.

 

[slfarms]

I find Jeff Lay's formula to be excellent advice, but my problem is where do I find 50 lb bags of 22-24% chick starter that also contains animal protein? The feed stores in my area have replaced animal protein with plant protein in their formulas which makes it really difficult NOT to serve turkey starter even though the kids have been doing great on that stuff. But I agree with Jeff; they're not turkeys. However, I really like Sydney Acres's blending of game bird and chick starter recipe. Really GOOD idea! Especially since you've had good results. 

Can I ask, what type of fish or fish product do you use when adding it as a feed supplement? Would I need it if the chick starter I purchase is 21.8% and game bird starter is 30%? I  don't know what to do. Kind of at a loss esp. since my first batch of Buckeyes (even though they're categorized as standard size fowl) look like bantams because I fed them organic feed. Organic feed so far is really not great in terms of nutrients. So I don't know...what do I do?

Thanks in advance.

Twin City poultry sells 34% animal protein. They have a website. For the fish portion I use cat fish pellets.
For the chicks I started them out on medicated crumbles and then when past 6 weeks moved them onto game bird(turkey/duck) feed at 24%
At around the time frame Jeff stated 16-18 weeks I'll then put them on a mix of all flock pellets, catfish pellets and a couple other things to bring the protein percent up in the 22-24 range.

 

[slfarms]

As for chicken feathers in the catfish pellets there was a lengthy discussion before. I don't mind it as it is a animal byproduct protein. I trust the scientist that came up with what the pellet consists of knows better than I how to add animal protein into feed.

 

[BuckeyeFan]

Buckeye chickens. Roos or hens. Is it as easy as looking at comb? Do hens have the green tail feathers at 8 or so weeks of age? We may have picked nearly all roos.