The extra toe gene: how does it work, exactly?

[aoxa]

I'm looking up silkies and kosher status, and everything I am finding points to they are Kosher. How much did you research this?
http://www.njjewishnews.com/article/4878/kosher-food-seminar-is-for-the-birds-and-bugs#.UKwv80ITthA

I've read the article before, and contacted the rabbi who led that seminar. He told me he isn't sure about the Silkie, and pointed me to an Israeli expert who, as he said, should come up with something more definite. That expert told me that the Silkie can't be eaten because there is no tradition of eating it. 

Just curious about the Kosher aspect. Did the Rabbis not say anything about the black skin and bones of a Silkie? Are 5 toed birds considered birds of prey or carrion eaters? Just wondering where the 5 toes comes into play.

Specifically the black skin wasn't discussed, but generally, it is acknowledged that the Silkie is a chicken and probably *should have been* kosher, if there was a tradition of eating it. I know it can be confusing, but basically, there was a point in history when rabbis said, "we're over with 'authorizing' kosher birds, from now on we'll just stick with those who have already always been eaten'. The turkey just narrowly made it in. The peacock, on the other hand, didn't - the tradition was lost at some point in history and was not reclaimed. But then, the Silkie is a chicken - but it doesn't *look* like a chicken. So, to be on the safe side, we're not allowed to eat it. Yes, I know. I'm not sure it makes sense to me either. 

To sum it up... I think if there were enough Orthodox Jews who really cared about "koshering" the Silkie (because to me, it really seems it's prohibited because of a very thinly stretched over-caution or doubt), and really wanted to keep Silkies and be sure their eggs can be eaten and if another breed is crossed with them it won't get "disqualified" because of extra toes, perhaps it could be done. Perhaps it could be decided that chickens are chickens and it's really confusing that a breed should be "non-kosher" because it looks weird (what about Polish? Are THEY kosher? They look weird too). But I don't think there are enough. I am yet to meet one Silkie fancier in Israel who is religiously observant enough to listen to/interact with rabbinical authorities. 

That makes sense. It does seem to be confusing. Either way, I don't eat silkies, or their eggs anyway. Their eggs are always hatched.

I do think silkies look the least like chickens out of any chicken breed I've seen. So it does make sense. I was hesitant when I first saw one and was told it was a chicken They don't even really act like chickens.

But anyhow I'm really pleasantly surprised that people who aren't even Jewish take interest in this topic. Also, I've read up on polydactyly yesterday and it was very interesting, turns out the gene isn't as straightforward as I thought. 

I have learned a lot yesterday that I didn't already know about Kosher. So thanks for being so thorough in your explanations on how and why. Very interesting

At least their Kosher status doesn't prohibit you from keeping them as pets

 

[Flock Leader]

That makes sense. It does seem to be confusing. Either way, I don't eat silkies, or their eggs anyway. Their eggs are always hatched.
I do think silkies look the least like chickens out of any chicken breed I've seen. So it does make sense. I was hesitant when I first saw one and was told it was a chicken

They don't even really act like chickens.

I have learned a lot yesterday that I didn't already know about Kosher. So thanks for being so thorough in your explanations on how and why. Very interesting

At least their Kosher status doesn't prohibit you from keeping them as pets

If you hatch every egg, how many chicks do you get every year?! Must be quite a lot, but then they go broody often and stop laying for a while, right?

Yes, I know. Kashrut really is quite a complicated matter. Interesting, too. But yes, I realized that since Silkies are pricey, and chicks can be sold at a good price, they might well pay for their keep even if they aren't a source of food for us. And as source of food I mean only eggs. We don't raise birds for meat.

 

[aoxa]

That makes sense. It does seem to be confusing. Either way, I don't eat silkies, or their eggs anyway. Their eggs are always hatched.

I do think silkies look the least like chickens out of any chicken breed I've seen. So it does make sense. I was hesitant when I first saw one and was told it was a chicken They don't even really act like chickens.

I have learned a lot yesterday that I didn't already know about Kosher. So thanks for being so thorough in your explanations on how and why. Very interesting

At least their Kosher status doesn't prohibit you from keeping them as pets

If you hatch every egg, how many chicks do you get every year?! Must be quite a lot, but then they go broody often and stop laying for a while, right? 

Yes, I know. Kashrut really is quite a complicated matter. Interesting, too. But yes, I realized that since Silkies are pricey, and chicks can be sold at a good price, they might well pay for their keep even if they aren't a source of food for us. And as source of food I mean only eggs. We don't raise birds for meat. 

You have to consider how many of those eggs hatch, and how many make it to adulthood - because sadly not every one does. I've hatched around 50-60 silkies this year. I only have 3 hens. Some of those eggs don't end up hatching (one hen wasn't laying anything fertile for quite some time).

And they do go broody very frequently. That alone puts them out of work (hehe) for 2-3 months alone. They normally don't lay in the winter. A silkie may lay between 100-200 eggs a year.

The Beautiful Silkie Bantams

Silkie Bantams are some of the most charming and beguiling oddities of the Poultry Fancy. They possess many characteristics that set them apart from the other breeds of chickens; the most obvious being the texture of their feathers which is almost fur or silk-like in appearance - hence their name. Feathers have several parts to them; the main part being the quill that grows from beneath the skin which tapers off up the center of the feather to become the shaft. From each side of the shaft comes the web which are tiny strands that are held together by small hooks or barbicels on the ends of the strands which gives the feather their typical appearance. The Silkie does not have the hooks on the ends of the tiny strands of the web, which are fluffed out rather than held together.

They also possess topknots or crests on their heads and abundant feathers growing down their legs and middle toe. They compete in the Featherleg Bantam class at poultry shows. Silkies are among the few other breeds of chickens that possess five toes instead of the usual four. They are the only chicken to have black, or more exactly, dark slate-blue skins. Silkies also come in a Bearded and Non-bearded variety, and can be found in many different colors. The colors which are recognized by both the American Poultry Association and the American Bantam Association are White, Black, Blue, Buff, Gray, Partridge and Splash.

The exact date and place of origin of the Silkies is not known, however Marco Polo wrote of the fur-covered fowl with black skin during his journeys to China in the 13th century. It is safe to assume that Silkies had been around quite a while before Marco Polo. The Silkie of that time and the modern Silkie do not resemble each other in many other respects, being that the ancient Silkies evidently did not have leg feathering or any crest to speak of. As a matter of fact, the Silkie seen in the showroom today has changed considerably in the last 30 to 40 years. Their crests are larger and the feathering down the legs is more abundant than seen previously. Also a larger variety of colors are found today. The original Silkies were white only, but through meticulous and vigilant breeding by some dedicated fanciers the colors are becoming much better in quality than they were.

Because of their gentle and docile nature, they make wonderful pets and adapt quickly to attention and handling by people. Their tendencies towards broodiness or setting are unsurpassed and Silkie hens will hatch and raise most any kind of poultry or game fowl. Many breeders of quail or pheasant who prefer to hatch naturally as opposed to an incubator will keep a flock of Silkie hens for this purpose. Once a Silkie hen has decided to set her eggs, there is very little that will bring her from the nest until those eggs have hatched. They will even go broody without the presence of eggs.

In many cases even the males can possess some of the maternal instincts and can be very gentle towards the chicks, calling them over when he finds a tasty tidbit and as soon as the chicks are old enough to venture any distance away from Mom, they will be seen running around with Dad just as often.

Because of their frequent inclination towards broodiness, they are not prolific layers as such breeds as Leghorns or Rhode Island Reds, as chickens do not lay while in the "broody cycle". However when they are in their lay cycle, which seems to vary with each individual hen, they are very dependable layers. Since the American Silkie is a bantam (small breed) the eggs are not huge - about medium in size ranging in colors from white to light brown.

My roosters are all broody daddys. Such good ones too.

 

[Flock Leader]

Yes, sadly I do realize not all eggs/chicks make it to adulthood. We really had quite a heartbreaking experience with our second hatch, but I thought it was because I didn't turn the eggs in the incubator often enough.

Although I still feel it's unfair the turkey is kosher most likely because there were enough people around to pressure for its "authorization" (as it had all the marks of a kosher bird, of course) but not enough people care about koshering the Silkie so it's "dubious", I have come to the conclusion they are still more than worth keeping as pets and broody moms, to help hatch the eggs of our non-broody hens.

 

[aoxa]

Yes, sadly I do realize not all eggs/chicks make it to adulthood. We really had quite a heartbreaking experience with our second hatch, but I thought it was because I didn't turn the eggs in the incubator often enough. 

Although I still feel it's unfair the turkey is kosher most likely because there were enough people around to pressure for its "authorization" (as it had all the marks of a kosher bird, of course) but not enough people care about koshering the Silkie so it's "dubious", I have come to the conclusion they are still more than worth keeping as pets and broody moms, to help hatch the eggs of our non-broody hens. 

YAY!

So glad you are getting some. They are really wonderful birds and you won't regret it.

Please post some pictures when you get a few girls

Are you getting a boy as well?

 

[Flock Leader]

YAY!

So glad you are getting some. They are really wonderful birds and you won't regret it.
Please post some pictures when you get a few girls

Are you getting a boy as well?

Well, I'm not exactly getting some right away.

First I'll subtly let my husband know that if he wants to give me a really great gift, I'd love some Silkies. I'll also casually drop by a few numbers of breeders I'll get off the internet. Then perhaps we'll talk about it and evaluate options; should we get hatching eggs, chicks or pullets - depends on cost and convenience. If we hatch eggs or get very young chicks we'll probably prefer to do it in spring.

I think that if we'll get Silkies, we'll be getting a roo as well; that way, if we let them hatch their own eggs, we'll get some new chicks, and what's more adorable than a mama hen with her brood? This is something we haven't seen yet in our flock... for all our hopes (and mounds of eggs gone bad because we didn't collect them) none of our chickens went broody last year. But then, it prompted my husband to build his nifty incubator, so I'm not complaining.

 

[forstadt]

I'm sorry, but discussion about the kosher status of Araucanas, Ameraucanas, and Silkies is utter, complete nonsense. These are all 100% chickens, and chickens are 100% kosher. The vast majority of serious kashrut agencies recognize this, but there has been a bit of hysteria over the last couple of years, combined with a lot of speculation by people who don't understand the biology or the history of the chicken. After a 20 year career as an archaeologist who specialized in the domestication of animals, I have spent the last 15 years as a mashgiach (kosher supervisor) for an orthodox kashrut agency with strict standards, so I believe I am uniquely qualified to speak to this issue. Black skin and extra toes have nothing to do with the discussion. The issue was whether different breeds of chickens started out as different species that were domesticated separately. There is no evidence for this whatsoever, but it doesn't even matter at this point; all domestic chickens currently share a common gene pool. No single breed in existence today has been kept entirely separate from all other breeds for any significant length of time. This is really a non-issue. Turkeys are, in theory, much, much more problematic, though their status has been settled (kosher) for several hundred years now.

 

[Flock Leader]

I'm sorry, but discussion about the kosher status of Araucanas, Ameraucanas, and Silkies is utter, complete nonsense. These are all 100% chickens, and chickens are 100% kosher. The vast majority of serious kashrut agencies recognize this, but there has been a bit of hysteria over the last couple of years, combined with a lot of speculation by people who don't understand the biology or the history of the chicken. After a 20 year career as an archaeologist who specialized in the domestication of animals, I have spent the last 15 years as a mashgiach (kosher supervisor) for an orthodox kashrut agency with strict standards, so I believe I am uniquely qualified to speak to this issue. Black skin and extra toes have nothing to do with the discussion. The issue was whether different breeds of chickens started out as different species that were domesticated separately. There is no evidence for this whatsoever, but it doesn't even matter at this point; all domestic chickens currently share a common gene pool. No single breed in existence today has been kept entirely separate from all other breeds for any significant length of time. This is really a non-issue. Turkeys are, in theory, much, much more problematic, though their status has been settled (kosher) for several hundred years now.

I agree with your stance 100%, but did not feel qualified to object while speaking to rabbinical authorities. After all, the kashrut issue is complex and vast. But you make perfect sense. I think the Turkey thing was settled largely because of public pressure. If enough people cared about the kashrut status of Silkies, rabbis would not feel as comfortable prohibiting them "just in case" (as it seems to me). However now I'm hesitant as to what I should do... would we still eat Silkies after asking a rabbi? Are we committed to the rabbinical opinion of the authority we sought? I don't know... either way we will probably keep Silkies as pets.

 

[aoxa]

I agree with your stance 100%, but did not feel qualified to object while speaking to rabbinical authorities. After all, the kashrut issue is complex and vast. But you make perfect sense. I think the Turkey thing was settled largely because of public pressure. If enough people cared about the kashrut status of Silkies, rabbis would not feel as comfortable prohibiting them "just in case" (as it seems to me). However now I'm hesitant as to what I should do... would we still eat Silkies after asking a rabbi? Are we committed to the rabbinical opinion of the authority we sought? I don't know... either way we will probably keep Silkies as pets.

Would you eat silkies even if your rabbi told you that they are kosher? I would mostly want to eat their eggs if anything else. Something seems wrong in my opinion with eating a bird that looks like a fluffy kitten.

Still, eggs are eggs. I'd eat silkie eggs if I wasn't planning on hatching them.

I really like this conversation guys. It's very enlightening

How are things Flock Leader?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Earlier she mentioned that it was the eggs she was wanting to eat; they aren't kosher if the bird is not kosher.