The Frugal Small Flock SOP Breeder

[3riverschick]

I'm in my first season with my tiny flock at the mo, have 5 breeding hens and one roo. Got 3 broods of chicks currently, and 18 eggs in the incubator due this coming friday. I am on the lookout for more quality birds, but as i live in New Zealand, the selection and numbers are really low. Have had great feedback on the birds i have so far, and can't wait to see how my babies from this season grow out, so i can figure out if i am on the right track with my guys. Thankfully, i really lucked out with my rooster, he only has one fault, and is pretty outstanding otherwise The hardest part at the mo is finding hens that are good enough to match him.
I did worry at first about having such a spall flock, and not having much space, that i wouldn't get the good results some people do from breeding hundreds of chicks every year, but i think it might almost work the other way around. As i am limited on space, i will only be able to keep the VERY BEST birds, and so will be forced to be very fussy with who is good and who is not.
Have one little pullet in the grow out pen that has made it to my keep list already. Hopefully she matures up well

Hi

I agree with you completely. Small doesn't equal failure. It just takes more judicious culling and study. More planning and starting with higher class stock. It can be done. I did it in collies and I can do it in poultry.
The end of our hatching season has come. It was very frustrating sales wise. I had inquiries from folk who wanted to color cross and crossbreed my birds. Those ideas got a polite "No" thru clenched teeth. Canceled another sale to lady who I felt viewed my birds as "just a commodity". Finally downsized the flock for winter. The best person to appreciate ones work is that same person, smile. In the end I got the birds I wanted.
1. 3 inbred pure Boese pullets. 2. A trio of strain-crossed Boese/Ross birds
. I am culling my egg flock and just keeping numbers 6 and 9 , my best layers. Stud cock Tux is going back to Walt Boese. Knight and Day will be my new best stud cock and the upstart is his 2014 son, Buster. So I am ready to recoop the birds for winter. Next year we will be doing lots of crossing back and forth between strains , plus some breeding pure in the strain for the Boese birds. From what I have seen at 4 months old, this Boese/Ross straincross is a real nice nick. I am excited about it. Looking forward to showing some of them next Spring , probably in Ohio.
Best Regards,
Karen.

 

[drumstick diva]

3 riverschick, by any chance were you a dog breeder? I've been on BYC for quite awhile and never heard chicken breeding called a "nick," but, used the word all the time in describing crosses between different lines in Dogs.

Just curious. Lots of dog people seem to have chickens now. Once you have good stock, you want it in any breed or species you have. I also hybridize streptocarpus house plants and cull hard because I'm picky. They don't even have a SOP, like African Violets do.

 

[3riverschick]

The Philosophy of Success for the Very Small Breeder

The Very small frugal breeder needs several things to succeed.
1. Most important is recognizing a need at that moment or a near future moment in the breed.
2. Having a clear vision of how to accomplish that. This requires 2 things.
A. A clear understanding of the breed(its history, origins, nuances and Standard which create a sound mental picture of a correct bird).
It is extremely difficult to select for proper breed type without understanding the nuances of a breed. These nuances become clear when one studies the history and origins of their breed. Studying just the variety is not enough.
B. Indepth knowledge of the strain(s) which are going to be used to accomplish success. This is absolutely crucial.

The very small breeder must attain all these factors or they will fail. Why? I know some of these things.
Why are the others so important?

Because in order to pull all the pieces together of one's vision plus practical experience, one must have a sufficiently in-depth unified field of knowledge. That is what the steps above will attain for the very small breeder. Those steps will fill the gaps which try to stumble and help erase the doubts which try to creep in when one is deciding on breeding and evaluating stock. These above steps keep the very small breeder from the morass of confusion and doubt caused by ignorance and lack of clear vision. After you have attained them, you will truly understand your breed and that understanding is where the secret of success lies for the very small breeder.
I did not make this up. It took me 15 years and 10's of 1000's of hours of study to learn it and I am sharing it with you for free. The history of the successes of the collies out Bellwether dams and breeding plan are a testament to the success of this philosophy. It is a general field of thought applicable to concentrating virtue in a gene pool with a goal of creating a superior, properly typey creature.
Best,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Here's another interesting tidbit. In Darwin's book on genetic variation he discusses a Law of Variation he ran across. It concerns melding 3 strains. It works in plants and I had it happen to me in collies. I don't know if it works in poultry. It would be an interesting project. Here's how it goes.
Three strains. All pure for themselves. In animal breeding that would translate into vintage high class line-bred strains.
Breed Strain A and Strain B together. ( I used a female A and male B) Then take the best girl from A/B and breed her to stud from Strain C. It only works in this exact order. The get A/B/C will resemble stud C as closely as if they were his siblings. This does not work if you use stud A/B and breed him to female Strain C.
I also think it is important to balance all three strains for excellence in the abstract as closely a possible to help set the stage for genetic equilibrium as much as possible. That way the Law has a less genetically disruptive environment in which to showcase its results.

What's excellence in the abstract and genetic equilibrium and why do I care?
excellence in the abstract is a term I learned from the Aga Kahn in his writings on horse breeding. It means to study sire and dam and match them as closely as possible for all traits. In other words, if you knew your male came from a heritage of quality tails you would want your female to have that same heritage or one as close as possible to it. You would not want to mate that male to a female from a heritage of poor tail set even if her tail set was proper. Because the genetic potential behind her was to produce a poor tailset and it would challenge your boys heritage for proper tailset. excellence in the abstract means to class your matings so one parents heritage and nuances aren't challenging the other parents. In other words, seeking excellence in the abstract sets the stage for genetic equilibrium in a mating. Here's one way to accomplish this:
1. find the 3 hallmarks of your breed which totally define it. We will use dogs as an example , it will not matter they are a different species for this example.
The knowledge will translate.
A good dog is three things. Proper health, proper type, and proper temperament. Dogs can be classified as 1st, 2nd, or 3rd levels of quality for these hallmarks. Here are 3 strains. We know them in-depth because we have researched and studied them. All three are vintage high quality line-bred strains.
1 Strain A: Best quality hallmark is health; 2nd best hallmark is temperament ;3rd best hallmark is breed type.
2. Strain B: Best quality hallmark is temperament ; 2nd best hallmark is breed type ; 3rd best hallmark is health.
3. Strain C : Best quality hallmark is breed type ; 2nd best hallmark is health ; 3rd best hallmark is temperament.

Notice how no hallmark is in the same place twice. This is important when establishing excellence in the abstract which helps create genetic equilibrium. It is important to note we are not quibbling about minor hallmarks here. We are discussing major hallmarks. The 3 most important.
If one decided to try this, then strain C would be strongest in the needs of the breed and if the law works for poultry, then his get would also resemble him.

You would need to decide for yourself which poultry traits are important to you and needed now or in the near future in your breed. Things like egg production, disease resistance, production for meat, show points, temperament, etc. What is needed in the breed trumps your own desires at the outset because making a contribution to the betterment of the breed is your 1st priority if you want your flock accepted and respected. Knowing what the breed needs and being able to reliably produce it is the most crucial key to success for the very small breeder.

I will close by stating that the wisest course for a novice very small breeder, touted historically by elite breeders, is to choose one variety within a breed. Source stock from one vintage line-bred strain which has been winning over multiple generations in quality competitition...then line-breed on it...asking the breeder for counsel for the 1st 2 or 3 generations. Until the new breeder has learned the nuances of his stock. ( that unified field of knowledge mentioned earlier).
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

There are 2 ways to class a breeding for potential success. One is the system I discussed in the last post. It is a system for dealing with the heritage behind the birds.
So that the heritages behind the birds don't conflict with each other. That is where knowledge of the strains one is using comes in.
Next is dealing with the birds themselves. The values and deficits in the individual birds. The ability to choose proper breed type. This is where
understanding of the breeds history, origins, and nuances comes in. Sometimes in breed, a variety is developed for a specialized purpose
within a breed's own history. If this is true to for your variety, it may change the hallmarks (and their rankings in importance) from which you choose
as opposed to the basic hallmarks for the entire breed.
Let's use Sussex fowl for an example. Historically a meat bird breed. The Speckled Sussex variety was developed as an all-round poultry breed.
Pretty for show, competent for eggs and meat. The Red Sussex was developed for its pronounced brooding ability. The Light Sussex was
developed as a meat fowl which excelled in egg laying. The Brown Sussex specifically as a table bird. So a Sussex breeder's selected hallmarks
and the evaluation of the individual birds would differ according to the variety with which they were working. Altho a Sussex breeder would always
be selecting for a basic meat producing fowl, In Lights, care would be taken to preserve quality laying potential. Not so in Browns, where meat producing
ability is all important. In the Speckled, meat and egg production are evenly balanced.
When the very small breeder has the knowledge to use both systems to class a mating for success, they can see( with judicious culling of the get)
very nearly the same level of success in a season as the large breeders who hatch 100's of chicks each season. It is all about the "How". Not the "How Much".
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[Yellow House Farm]

3 riverschick, by any chance were you a dog breeder? I've been on BYC for quite awhile and never heard chicken breeding called a "nick," but, used the word all the time in describing crosses between different lines in Dogs.

There are very few APA/ABA chicken breeders on BYC. Poultry breeders use the term "nick" commonly.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

There are very few APA/ABA chicken breeders on BYC.  Poultry breeders use the term "nick" commonly.

Sheep, hog and cattle breeders frequently use the term "nick."

 

[LindaB220]

There are 2 ways to class a breeding for potential success. One is the system I discussed in the last post. It is a system for dealing with the heritage behind the birds.
So that the heritages behind the birds don't conflict with each other. That is where knowledge of the strains one is using comes in.
Next is dealing with the birds themselves. The values and deficits in the individual birds. The ability to choose proper breed type. This is where
understanding of the breeds history, origins, and nuances comes in. Sometimes in breed, a variety is developed for a specialized purpose
within a breed's own history. If this is true to for your variety, it may change the hallmarks (and their rankings in importance) from which you choose
as opposed to the basic hallmarks for the entire breed.
Let's use Sussex fowl for an example. Historically a meat bird breed. The Speckled Sussex variety was developed as an all-round poultry breed.
Pretty for show, competent for eggs and meat. The Red Sussex was developed for its pronounced brooding ability. The Light Sussex was
developed as a meat fowl which excelled in egg laying. The Brown Sussex specifically as a table bird. So a Sussex breeder's selected hallmarks
and the evaluation of the individual birds would differ according to the variety with which they were working. Altho a Sussex breeder would always
be selecting for a basic meat producing fowl, In Lights, care would be taken to preserve quality laying potential. Not so in Browns, where meat producing
ability is all important. In the Speckled, meat and egg production are evenly balanced.
When the very small breeder has the knowledge to use both systems to class a mating for success, they can see( with judicious culling of the get)
very nearly the same level of success in a season as the large breeders who hatch 100's of chicks each season. It is all about the "How". Not the "How Much".
Best Regards,
Karen

I'm going to have to do some in depth study on this. It seems to be just what I'm looking for on my White Plymouth Rocks.

.

 

[3riverschick]

There are very few APA/ABA chicken breeders on BYC. Poultry breeders use the term "nick" commonly.

3 riverschick, by any chance were you a dog breeder? I've been on BYC for quite awhile and never heard chicken breeding called a "nick," but, used the word all the time in describing crosses between different lines in Dogs.

Just curious. Lots of dog people seem to have chickens now. Once you have good stock, you want it in any breed or species you have. I also hybridize streptocarpus house plants and cull hard because I'm picky. They don't even have a SOP, like African Violets do.

Yup. We were in collies for 15 years. Bred smooth and rough collies. Bred show collies capable of being working collies. Bellwether Collies 1995 - 2009. Collies out of our girls competed successfully in 13 venues. I know what you mean. Once you have had goodun's , the rest don't matter. What's a streptocarpus house plant ?
Best,
Karen

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I just got a notice from my old feed store that Purina has "premiumized" some of it's poultry feed to be more nutritious and appealing to small flock owners like us.

The Layena now has completely new packaging ... from what I can see at the redesigned website, it has the word "Premium" featured, and is missing the "SunFresh Recipe" logo and the words "vegetarian" from the product description ... have been replaced with the ambiguous phrase "freshly ground North American grains." No clue about the protein source, or the base grain choices as that is not detailed and of course that changes due to market pricing. The product info states feed is now enhanced with yeasts and pre- and pro-biotics. Available in both pellets and crumbles.

As usual, much vagueness surrounds the actual recipe. I'll provide a link as the website is SUCKTASTIC. http://purinamills.com/chicken-feed/products/layena/ Yes, the humongous photo of a chicken that fills my screen after navigating clicks through to the poultry products area is pretty, but why do I need to click and scroll so much to find the products? yeesh

I do see the "Game Bird & Turkey Startena" is back on the menu. When I called about the "Chow" products before the start of last year's turkey season (2013), the feed store told me they didn't exist and that I "spend too much time on the Internet." I even contacted Purina's sale's rep directly to ask for the COMPLETE listing of Purina brand poultry feeds, so maybe I could order something in bulk (one ton pallets) ... that dude told me to check the Purina website, but of course none of the "Chow" feeds were on the website at the time (only this one product is there now). I only knew the high-protein statena existed because the name of that specific product did pop up in Purina's Q&A section (What do I feed baby turkeys? Why Turkey Starter, of course). So many products not on the website were on the list of the recall the local Purina poultry feed mill had a while back. Mysterious. Ridiculous.

Oh how I hate dealing with most feed manufacturer/seller/suppliers.

Shortly after all of that, I switched away from Purina feeds and also from the farm store where I'd been buying them ... I didn't like the attitude of the help at that farm store or their inability to think for themselves about to getting appropriate feed on the shelves for the birds they sold in their bins (poults in the bins, no turkey starter on the shelves and just the goldfish face or snarky comments when I asked about it), and I really didn't appreciate the run-around from Purina in helping me communicate with the farm store. More than that, my birds looked rough on Purina brand feeds. So I switched everyone over to Payback brand feeds, milled locally, and chose their 19% all purpose poultry pellets with oyster shell on the side (and chose not to start turkeys this year) ... it was great to have everyone on the same feed and the pellets are sure more efficient. I got decent help from Payback, and we were able to order it through a more helpful source and get a bulk buying discount with very little markup. It seemed a pretty good choice for a frugal small-flock operation.

Payback has a lot of great choices, and if you're not going GMO-free or Certified Organic, the Payback concentrated feeds would be super frugal, particularly if you could score sensible quantities of local grains straight from the field.

Regardless, our egg customers are super picky about knowing exactly what is in the feed, so we switched to a custom feed, with a stable & known recipe that has extra nutrients for breeders (no GMOs, no corn, no soy, no Canola). It includes Organic feed-grade yeast. It's more expensive than the Payback feeds, but less expensive than most of the boutique feeds (and the customer service is a lot less snotty than I've encountered elsewhere).

Another way to get yeast into a poultry feed is to buy Nutritional Yeast in bulk from a grocery store ... which is what was doing while I was using the Payback feeds. It isn't cheap, but a little goes a long way, and it is great on popcorn or pasta. Or, if you're lucky, your feed store can order you some feed-grade yeasts from this company ... http://www.diamondv.com/species/poultry-nutrition-and-health/ ...

Anyhow, to end on a positive note: I've read plenty of poultry science research articles that indicate adding yeast to poultry feed is a good idea ... pro- and pre-biotics can also be added, or can be provided through fermentation, and those also seem to be good for the birds. So ... yay for Purina for hopping on the bandwagon.