The Honey Factory

[duluthralphie]

People do over-winter them in unheated sheds, I hear...

But what is the survival rate in our mild climate?

 

[OhZark Biddies]

But what is the survival rate in our mild climate?

If I was a northy and wanted to winter bees... I’d look into putting them in storage in a shed, etc... as I’ve seen some Canuck beeks videos on that on the web...

Also, I’d try overwintering just because there are things to be learned... even if it doesn’t work out...

And remember Old Ma Nature looses hives every winter too, so don’t take it too personally if you have losses, but look for the lessons to help for the next year...

That’s the short version

But....

I have a bee book written by a ruskie from Siberia... and translated into gibberish so that I can read it, by another ruskie that now lives in the Ozarks and speaks pretty good gibberish...

The Siberian fella overwintered hives no problem... but he had a distaste for langstroth, Dandant, and warre style hives ... and went to building the hives and using the strains of bees his ancestors used, etc...

It’s a good read and he focused much of his hive design on replicating the thermal mass of hollow tree hives...

I’ve studied this quite a bit, and most hive wraps add r-value to the langstroth hive, but there is something missing with the breath ability and natural warming/cooling in a wrapped Lang’s hive... vs. a hive built with thermal mass that will absorb and release heat in a way that the bees in their sleepy cluster state can keep up with...

But in a lot of places it doesn’t really matter... ironically your southie map from the ‘you might be a southie thread’ might actually be pretty accurate as far the effectiveness of when the need for thermal mass vs. adding hive wraps to pump up r- value on a Lang’s will work...

But it’s probably not ironic at all... but more like instinct... or just something you ‘know’ from a lifetime of understanding your ridiculously cold climate...

My wife’s granny was a Finn landed in Michigan’s UP... I actually attended a thing called ‘Finn Fest’ up there one year... it was fun and I learned a lot.... but mostly I learned Northies are not normal people...

So if you’re gonna beek up there... I think you gotta stop thinking like normal beeks...

but I’m certain you can overwinter there... but you’ll have to look at sheds, or maybe an ‘alternative’ hive design... that adds r-values and thermal mass... or whatever... and you’re gonna have losses... but I suspect if you figure it out... your losses would be no more than the average for my area...

I almost mentioned the ruskie’s book to you at the start of this thread, since you mentioned overwintering/or not, right off the bat... but I think there is a ton of value in learning on standard Lang’s woodware

Btw... I’ve not seen the ‘worldwide southie’ map but I’m guessing you think Siberia is a southie region

P.s.
I’ve designed a few hives using the ruskie’s concepts... but have yet to build one... mostly because I can get by with hive wraps on a Langs hive for cold spells in my climate... And because using standardized woodware has so many benefits...

but I’d still like to put some of the concepts in place because I think the standard Lang hive design is actually lacking ( Mr. Langstroth originally designed a double wall and some other features into his hive, but those were stripped away by beeks for convenience and economy... which he actually predicted would happen)

 

[duluthralphie]

I am thinking about all of it, still not sure what I will do.

 

[shawluvsbirds]

If I was a northy and wanted to winter bees... I’d look into putting them in storage in a shed, etc... as I’ve seen some Canuck beeks videos on that on the web...

Also, I’d try overwintering just because there are things to be learned... even if it doesn’t work out...

And remember Old Ma Nature looses hives every winter too, so don’t take it too personally if you have losses, but look for the lessons to help for the next year...

That’s the short version

But....

I have a bee book written by a ruskie from Siberia... and translated into gibberish so that I can read it, by another ruskie that now lives in the Ozarks and speaks pretty good gibberish...

The Siberian fella overwintered hives no problem... but he had a distaste for langstroth, Dandant, and warre style hives ... and went to building the hives and using the strains of bees his ancestors used, etc...

It’s a good read and he focused much of his hive design on replicating the thermal mass of hollow tree hives...

I’ve studied this quite a bit, and most hive wraps add r-value to the langstroth hive, but there is something missing with the breath ability and natural warming/cooling in a wrapped Lang’s hive... vs. a hive built with thermal mass that will absorb and release heat in a way that the bees in their sleepy cluster state can keep up with...

But in a lot of places it doesn’t really matter... ironically your southie map from the ‘you might be a southie thread’ might actually be pretty accurate as far the effectiveness of when the need for thermal mass vs. adding hive wraps to pump up r- value on a Lang’s will work...

But it’s probably not ironic at all... but more like instinct... or just something you ‘know’ from a lifetime of understanding your ridiculously cold climate...

My wife’s granny was a Finn landed in Michigan’s UP... I actually attended a thing called ‘Finn Fest’ up there one year... it was fun and I learned a lot.... but mostly I learned Northies are not normal people...

So if you’re gonna beek up there... I think you gotta stop thinking like normal beeks...

but I’m certain you can overwinter there... but you’ll have to look at sheds, or maybe an ‘alternative’ hive design... that adds r-values and thermal mass... or whatever... and you’re gonna have losses... but I suspect if you figure it out... your losses would be no more than the average for my area...

I almost mentioned the ruskie’s book to you at the start of this thread, since you mentioned overwintering/or not, right off the bat... but I think there is a ton of value in learning on standard Lang’s woodware

Btw... I’ve not seen the ‘worldwide southie’ map but I’m guessing you think Siberia is a southie region

P.s.
I’ve designed a few hives using the ruskie’s concepts... but have yet to build one... mostly because I can get by with hive wraps on a Langs hive for cold spells in my climate... And because using standardized woodware has so many benefits...

but I’d still like to put some of the concepts in place because I think the standard Lang hive design is actually lacking ( Mr. Langstroth originally designed a double wall and some other features into his hive, but those were stripped away by beeks for convenience and economy... which he actually predicted would happen)

Wow.


You really are a BEEK.

 

[CindyinSD]

But what is the survival rate in our mild climate?

I believe it is mostly vastwhitenorthies who do this, so... If it never worked, I don't expect they'd keep on doing it, but you never know. Maybe they still cherish the hope that one wonderful day, global warming will finally come true?

I'm debating... what if I put my planned Layens deep, wide & long hive in my greenhouse with the roll up sides and west-end roll up "garage door?" I'm gonna put hwc under the roll-up sides to keep varmits out, but the bees ought to zip right through that. Only thing... moving a Layens hive is generally *not done* on account of it's weighing a bazillion pounds. It would have to stay put, winter and summer alike. I wonder whether that would work, or would it be too hot in summer even with everything open all day?

 

[OhZark Biddies]

Wow.


You really are a BEEK.

Did you mean GEEK?

Yeah, I read a book 30 years ago written by a lady beek from the ‘show me state’ and have been geeking out on bees and beekeeping history ever since...

it’s kinda fascinating to me how it relates to how and why we do things today still...

For example, I once read that the modern standard langstroth bee box is the size that it is because he just used a common sized crate that something was packed in... I forget, but it was cans of some sort...

But for all the precise ‘bee space’ and such that Langstroth is credited with coming up with, it seems interesting that it all derived from something that was just laying around

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I believe it is mostly vastwhitenorthies who do this, so... If it never worked, I don't expect they'd keep on doing it, but you never know. Maybe they still cherish the hope that one wonderful day, global warming will finally come true?

I'm debating... what if I put my planned Layens deep, wide & long hive in my greenhouse with the roll up sides and west-end roll up "garage door?" I'm gonna put hwc under the roll-up sides to keep varmits out, but the bees ought to zip right through that. Only thing... moving a Layens hive is generally *not done* on account of it's weighing a bazillion pounds. It would have to stay put, winter and summer alike. I wonder whether that would work, or would it be too hot in summer even with everything open all day?

How long are you planning it? I think many of the horizontal deep hives are overly long, compared to what a queen has the ability to cover, plus the honey frames... so many of the frames to one end or the other never get used.... I’ve never used one, but that seems to be a common experience

I’ve laid out a few extra deep frame hive designs using some of the concepts of the layens and similar hives... and I always end up with a more square box vs long, once I do the numbers on what would be expected for use

But I really like the thought of the Layens hive... i think it solves a lot of the problems bees have in a Lang hive with winter clustering.

I would wonder about the greenhouse summer temps too.

 

[CindyinSD]

How long are you planning it? I think many of the horizontal deep hives are overly long, compared to what a queen has the ability to cover, plus the honey frames... so many of the frames to one end or the other never get used.... I’ve never used one, but that seems to be a common experience

I’ve laid out a few extra deep frame hive designs using some of the concepts of the layens and similar hives... and I always end up with a more square box vs long, once I do the numbers on what would be expected for use

But I really like the thought of the Layens hive... i think it solves a lot of the problems bees have in a Lang hive with winter clustering.

I would wonder about the greenhouse summer temps too.

I was thinking something like this: https://borrowedvesselsbeeworks.com/beehive/the-modified-layens-hive/

Maybe two of them--three? I'm worried about getting the frames the right size to fit in an extractor. Should I be? Is that even a convenience for someone only wanting pollination and a bit of personal /gifting honey? Am I gonna fall in love with this and try to make it into a business, then wish I had sized it for standard frames--and what size is that anyway?

 

[Kusanar]

I was thinking something like this: https://borrowedvesselsbeeworks.com/beehive/the-modified-layens-hive/

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Maybe two of them--three? I'm worried about getting the frames the right size to fit in an extractor. Should I be? Is that even a convenience for someone only wanting pollination and a bit of personal /gifting honey? Am I gonna fall in love with this and try to make it into a business, then wish I had sized it for standard frames--and what size is that anyway?

I would make it to fit standard frames, just in case, it would be a royal pain if you build it bigger and then decide later you want to use an extractor and you have to figure out how to move an entire hive of bees into a new hive after they are established.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I can’t find it at the moment but on some bee forum I’d found a statement from someone that had been running extra deep/jumbo frames ... and mentioned the max number of frames they were ever to see used in their hives

The most often used number is just under 1900 square inches of brood frame... I think that comes from the Dandant research... so you’d have to do the math on that using the inside dimensions of a layens frame... to see how many that comes to... and then add a few for honey

I’ve looked at the website you linked in the past, and I think that one is a bit long but far less so than others I’ve seen...

but at the same time having a little extra space isn’t bad... and some of the horizontal hive people just end up putting in a divider and raising nucs on one end, but it does make for a big long heavy box

I think Dr. Leo who pushes the layens hive says there is one extractor that will spin layens frames... but from memory, it’s a pretty penny... of course you can crush and strain too... but of course the bees have draw new comb for the honey frames each year

I’d probably be more apt to use two deep frames joined together, and unjoin them for extracting...

For a brand new bee keeper, I’d recommend doing standard equipment... if I were to do it over I’d buy all mediums ( supers) and only use that one size box and frame, for brood and honey both... you hear this over and over, but it’s just so easy to find deep equipment ... I might work toward that eventually though

But if ever do build a deep/jumbo hive I think I would tend toward a frame that is the same as two medium frames ... and if memory serves it would work out to 12 of those frames... and result in a square box... and I’d stack a custom medium frame honey super on it during a flow...

and I’d build that monster box two 2x’s thick so it had 3 inch walls for extra thermal mass... and not do any foam... so I think that comes out to a brood box that is about 12x26x26...

I’m pretty sure that would be big enough to squelch swarming, and provide a cozy winter box that would allow the cluster to be a bit more stable... but that’s for my area...

here we have a lot of ups and downs all winter... so with a normal 3/4” wall box, the bees are bouncing in and out of cluster and often using lots of food stores...

Of course that box would not be something that is ever gonna move once it’s in place... but I think it would be interesting to see how the bees do in that kinda setup... I’ve been threatening to build it for several years now but never do