The Search for Superbird

[gojira]

Maybe you can't see it in those pictures, but I assure you that he's a lavender Columbian patterned bird if you're looking at the right one. If he's in your hands, he's patterned like all the other Colombian birds I've ever seen. The gray color was present on both of his parents and is definitely lavender as opposed to blue (because I've bred both colors before and should know the difference if the birds are actually in front of my face).

Yes, most articles are written by people that should know what they're talking about on Wikipedia, but as even that article stated, the original version had red, which none of the recreations do. Hence, the term "Coronation" is pretty much meaningless since nobody can seem to agree on what said birds actually looked like. That's the big point I was trying to make. It's not something to get offended over.

Lavender as a color is mostly distinguished from blue by hereditary patterns, so without an understanding of the genetic basis for the color, it often looks indistinguishable from blue, which could be a source of confusion of historical documentation of the breed and color. Hence, why I specified about historical documents and dealing with writings which cannot be verified to have been written by people who certainly know the difference. The 1800's was when poultry fancy and genetics were both getting started in earnest. There were a lot of alleles that hadn't been seen yet and certainly hadn't been explained, so it's perfectly conceivable that depending on the source of the initial information, a relatively simple matter as blue versus lavender could've been mistaken (though the issue of the red tbat

You made no mention of the melanotic gene. Or the difference between concentric penciling and double lacing which are certainly different. Maybe you have weird judges. It's a common thing for judges who aren't familiar with certain breeds and colors to judge them unfairly. However, seeing as how your son apparently keeps both breeds, I'm not sure why you asserted that they were the same when one is plainly labeled partridge (apparently multiple laced) and the other "dark". Barnevelders are double laced and usually the same color and pattern as dark Cornish, yet they're both called by different descriptors.

I'd been trying to make a point that often gets brought up with people just getting into the hobby. A lot of the same colors and patterns get called different terms in different breeds, so it's confusing for people.

I'd said dark Brahmas were comparatively close in color to wild type on a genetic level, which isn't the same as saying they're close to wild type overall. Just talking about divergence in terms of color/pattern mutations. There are certainly colors and patterns which are more complicated. We don't even have all the alleles studied, let alone mapped or properly understood, so it's actually pretty difficult to make hard, fast judgement calls because there's often lurking genetic interactions which are just waiting to confound expectations.


I'm not rich enough to buy fancier birds. I'm currently dealing with a plethora of health concerns that make normal day to day functioning difficult when it isn't impossible. I can't walk straight. I can't speak well. I start twutching and droolingm and hitting myself. I can't control basic motor functions periodically throughout any given day. There are times I stop breathing for seemingly no reason. I keep getting shuffled off to doctors who won't listen to me or even run tests because--like you've been doing--they're so sure that I'm wrong but won't bother proving it. It can't be ovarian cancer because I'm too young. It can't be something more than a concussion ( because that's the diagnosis that requires the least effort from a neurologist). I can feel a growing mass on my ovary, but I can't get anyone to run a test, and that's been going on for years.

.I don't mind being wrong. That's part of learning.


In the pictures that you posted, the bird looks neither blue nor lavender, and does not look Columbian patterned.

What color was the face, comb, rattles, and earlobes on the original Coronation Sussex since you say they weren't red?

The Coronation Sussex was made in the 1930s, and they knew quite a bit about poultry genetics by then. Blue and lavender look very different, and behave very different. It is important for people to know what they are talking about when discussing things like this, or it confuses people.

Dark Brahmas are not close to the wild type in color. Wild type expresses gold, not silver. The alleles at the E locus are different also.

You keep saying you don't have enough money to buy fancier birds. Many birds are free or inexpensive, even if you are talking about show quality. Maybe things are different where you are. But, I am not sure show quality matters, since you want to cross breeds anyway.

I am not minimizing your health concerns, but many people have problems, but what matters is how we deal with them.

If you really want proof that the bird you pictured is neither Columbian nor lavender, I will be willing to show you. What color/pattern/breed were the parents? You mentioned an ancestor was a Coronation Sussex.[/QUOTE]

 

[gojira]

I'm getting out of poultry. It doesn't need me and is full of people like you who can't stop criticizing oeople without offering any actual help. I'd enjoyed it for several years, but with my neurological issues, I'm never getting into veterinary school, and that was the reason I stuck with the birds after having them foisted onto me.

I can't even be sure that you're looking at the same bird as me in those pictures since you won't even acknowledge a dilution factor or repost the picture. I posted pictures of seven different roosters in that last bunch. Nobody else has ever been confused when I used any of those terms to describe this fellow until you showed up... and told me that I can't possibly know the difference between gray and black, cream and white, penciling and double lacing, gold and silver. I'm obviously blind and stupid. All you had to do this whole time was describe his phenotype in your infinite wisdom and explain why I'm stupid and blind, but you've persisted in arguing me not only out of this project but out of keeping chickens entirely.

Chickens have 78 chromosomes, and thousands of genes, but you think a difference at two or three loci makes a bird far from wildtype. Recessive white Silkies I could see as pretty far from wildtype. Isabel cuckoo hookless frizzled fibromelanistic walnut combed bantam birds with polydactyly, covered over by epistatic interactions that don't allow transport vesicles to bring pigment to feathers... that's farther at least from wildtype. When all of the possible mutations are taken into account, Dark Brahmas are comparatively close in color to wildtype, which is why I used the term "comparatively" and specified that I was talking about color.

As red can refer to plumage color, shank color and earlobes, I don't think there's room to blame anyone for being confused as to which part might've been red when I've never seen a photograph of the original birds. Of course Sussex have red earlobes, and it's certainly at least as plausible for someone to mention that red as patriotic in the context, though it seems a little silly since nearly all chickens have red faces. By the description alone, however, the bird might've been a blue spangled Speckled Sussex too (and therefore also red, white and blue) or any number of other patterns, since it wasn't specified which parts were what color.

You won.

I have offered help. I am not sure how many ways I can say it. I will help you if you allow me. I have tried to help, but you ignore it. You have told me you know more about poultry genetics than I do, so you have made it clear that you don't want me to help. Why would neurological issues keep you out of get school? You sound like you never wanted chickens to begin with, since you said they were foisted upon you.

I have tried to give you many chances to research his pattern/color before I just give you the answer. Wild type has gold, Dark Brahmas are silver.

Red can relate to any part of the chicken, but in the case of the Coronation Sussex, it referred to the comb, face, wattles, and earlobes.

Since your rooster is a cross, it is difficult to say his specific genotype. Instead of Columbian, he is expressing the quail pattern. That is common in Easter Eggers. The markings in the hackles are not diluted, so they are black. Both parents would need to be at least heterozygous for lavender in order for it to be expressed, as it is recessive. What you call cream is red leakage, and it is not lacing. He appears to have one allele for gold, and one for silver. Cream is different. Geneticists agree to certain terms to make it easier for people to communicate about things. It is not helpful when someone uses those terms for other things.

 

[Indyshent]

Both of his parents were lavender. He is diluted, even if you can't tell in some of the pictures. I'm aware that he has leakage from the gold (his mother was lavender partridge). I had been using the term "creamy" because it's a cream color and not using the term as cream in the genetic sense since I know he shouldn't have that. "Lacing" in hackles in this case is just trying to describe that each of those feathers has an off-white border surrounding a certainly diluted middle area. Obviously, he's not a "laced" bird. I'm not actually blind, and I give you the benefit of assuming you aren't either.

His father was a lavender English Orpington over a Coronation Sussex. I had been watching said rooster for a friend, but I met both of the grandparents too, so yes, I know what they looked like. My friend had been very proud of her Coronation Sussex pair, but when the rooster died, she'd placed the surviving hen in with her Orps. Resultant rooster from that cross was almost completely lavender but had occasional lighter bits, usually in a sloppy heterozygous laced kinda way (not sure if you've seen that pattern before, it's common with mixed breeds and especially with lavender birds in this area across multiple breeds. Some odd allele that nobody seems to ever purge from breeding stock, which is why I'd mentioned it earlier).

Generally, red bleed in my experience, shows up in the shoulder. This guy doesn't have it there quite yet, but I did expect it to show up eventually because his mother was partridge, and it's famously hard for breeders to get rid of. I wasn't breeding for color yet but trying to get a colored layer with clean shanks and no comb. I figured once I had those traits down, I could start gunning for autosexing by crossing in Legbars which I can sometimes find here (Breda are much more difficult to find, and unfortunately the one line I did bump into in this state was full of sickly birds--thus, I'd been trying to recover the rare and very recessive combless allele from the two Breda crosses I had available, and I knew fixing that trait alone was going to take a long labor of love).

 

[Kiki]

Indy..don't give up.
I can't wait until I can understand this thread.
You both are really making me want to get to studying today!
Thanks.

 

[gojira]

Both of his parents were lavender. He is diluted, even if you can't tell in some of the pictures. I'm aware that he has leakage from the gold (his mother was lavender partridge). I had been using the term "creamy" because it's a cream color and not using the term as cream in the genetic sense since I know he shouldn't have that. "Lacing" in hackles in this case is just trying to describe that each of those feathers has an off-white border surrounding a certainly diluted middle area. Obviously, he's not a "laced" bird. I'm not actually blind, and I give you the benefit of assuming you aren't either.

His father was a lavender English Orpington over a Coronation Sussex. I had been watching said rooster for a friend, but I met both of the grandparents too, so yes, I know what they looked like. My friend had been very proud of her Coronation Sussex pair, but when the rooster died, she'd placed the surviving hen in with her Orps. Resultant rooster from that cross was almost completely lavender but had occasional lighter bits, usually in a sloppy heterozygous laced kinda way (not sure if you've seen that pattern before, it's common with mixed breeds and especially with lavender birds in this area across multiple breeds. Some odd allele that nobody seems to ever purge from breeding stock, which is why I'd mentioned it earlier).

Generally, red bleed in my experience, shows up in the shoulder. This guy doesn't have it there quite yet, but I did expect it to show up eventually because his mother was partridge, and it's famously hard for breeders to get rid of. I wasn't breeding for color yet but trying to get a colored layer with clean shanks and no comb. I figured once I had those traits down, I could start gunning for autosexing by crossing in Legbars which I can sometimes find here (Breda are much more difficult to find, and unfortunately the one line I did bump into in this state was full of sickly birds--thus, I'd been trying to recover the rare and very recessive combless allele from the two Breda crosses I had available, and I knew fixing that trait alone was going to take a long labor of love).

Can you post a picture of his mother? You have used terms incorrectly in the past, so I would like to see what his mother looks like. If you knew he was not cream, and not laced, why use those terms? All it does is confuse people.

 

[Indyshent]

Lacing isn't a gene. It's not the genetic designator for anything--it's just how we describe the pattern of a feather being limned in a different color than the middle portion. Ergo, it's actually correct to say that particular feathers can be laced without saying that the whole bird is laced.

Cream (sometimes creme, which doesn't help) is an allele which alters coloring, but there isn't really a purely cream bird. Even "cream" Legbars aren't pure "cream" colored. There's no such bird because it's just a dilution factor, when it comes down to how it plays it out in a bird. A purely cream colored bird would have a plethora of other mutations necessarily.

However, as "cream" was a color in normal, everyday language long before it was ever a chicken allele, it's also perfectly allowable for me to use the term to describe a warm and distinctly off-white color as "creamy". I should be able to do that without you pouncing on me, particularly since "Creamy" isn't a word used for any allele.

 

[DuckLady]

Thank you for your participation. Due to the excess arguing, this thread is closed.