The Search for Superbird

[Indyshent]

It'd be cool even though it won't happen, but in speaking of cool features which don't appear to adversely affect birds, I really like the extra spurs and hen spurs on some Sumatra I've seen. It's not a practical thing, but it is pretty cool looking and does seem to keep spurs overall from getting as long and potentially dangerous to deal with for handlers. I've only met a couple Sumatra roosters who had multiple spurs, and even then, most of them started getting their extra spurs later in life. Never met a Sumatra hen with spurs, though both of my Welsummers had them, which was pretty cool. It's a fun useless little trait that's not likely to crop up in this project... but you can bet I'd breed it in if the opportunity ever arises.

I don't dislike pea combs, but I have heard quite a number of people complain about them being ugly or going hand-in-hand with other ugly traits, like dewlaps. I've noticed that birds with pea combs tend to have different eyes. Not sure how to describe it, but the front part of the eye looks swollen toward the nose, so I suspect whatever alters the comb morphology may alter something in the eyelids or sinuses too. Who knows though.

Short of comblessness, small V combs might work best (though V is actually another tiny double rose comb, apparently). I'd like to see if Optimus Prime's comb can be replicated and fixed without making the points long enough to be susceptible to frostbite. It's like a tiny buttercup comb--just big enough for a marble to sit in. It's flashy and not too big, but it's probably due to a heterozygous condition because that's just how cookies crumble.

 

[YdogsflY]

Honestly, you seem to be way over thinking things. Without the room, infrastructure, time, and finances to do things properly, there really is no need to worry about so much. Just have fun with the stock you have and hatch as many chicks as you can. Keep the top 10% of the birds showing what you're looking for and cull the rest. Add a breed down the road when you can if it will help improve.

It's all about the baby steps. Moving forward as much as possible. When fowl are not moving forward, they are regressing.

Fertility in Rose comb breeds may be lower, but plenty of rose comb breeds out there have no problems producing fertile eggs and chicks with plenty of vigor. Hatchability does not seem affected.

Combs are not much of an issue unless you're in the far north or south. Large straight combs on fowl do fairly well in temperate regions as well as southern. Frostbite can be an issue, but I wouldn't rule out straight combs in your area. Proper coop ventilation can do wonders to prevent frostbite. My New Hamps and leghorns have not had any frostbite issues here in PA.

In all honesty, there are breeds already available that will meet your needs. While you may or may not find standard bred fowl of those breeds, the hatchery stock will lay lots of eggs for you and the family.

 

[Indyshent]

I had wondered about that issue with the rose combs. There's bunches of rose comb breeds, so I wouldn't imagine it could be such a terrible allele. However, such breeds are also plagued by single comb sports because the heterozygous single/rose roosters outperform homozygotes. I like single combs fine, but I've seen so many with frostbite. Most people don't have frostbite-proof coops, and even if they do, the silly bird goes outside and roots in a tree during a sleet storm. It's a made in thing, and I'd rather avoid it. Of course, the Leghorn and Legbar roos I've had have had the hugest single combs I've ever seen, and their giant wattles were always getting dunked in the water dish. RIR, Orps, Welsummers, and other single combed breeds I've kept haven't had near the problems with frostbite, but those breeds all hail from places less balmy than the Mediterranean, which called for more heat tolerant single combs of giant magnitude. Not a whole lot of study has gone into whatever modifies comb size, to my knowledge. It's just left at "there's modifiers at work that we don't understand". I don't want giant combs because I've seen too many nice boys marred by frostbite. I can't enforce other people to keep their birds in well ventilated coops, and I can't enforce bird intelligence regarding protocols in inclement weather, so I'm trying to prevent frostbite before it happens through altering genetics.

Have you all looked into Maiden Rocks? They're bantams, which is cute and all but I prefer my birds bigger. The pea comb genes do give them the sneezy eye look and dewlaps. I don't prefer henny feathering because roos can be hard enough to tell apart with some breeds as it is. Adding confusion is just that, but I understand where the breeder comes from at the same time. He's a geneticist, and while generally a practically minded, we've all got our goofier, less practical inclinations. Benny feathering inclination all big deal for a lot of geneticists, but I like guys with more flair

 

[YdogsflY]

Again, not to be rude, you seem to be over thinking things.

Frostbite proof coops don't exist without climate control, but coops with proper ventilation do exist. It may be a man made problem, but chickens have been domesticated at least 10 millennium. Equating frostbite to people keeping improper combs per climate is over doing it. Not being lazy when it comes to infrastructure so you can have what you want (comb type) and not blame other things other than yourself.

Origination of a breed has no hold over the breed in general when climate is looked at. Chickens are tough and adapt. If you like leghorns with smaller combs, get some leghorns, and selective breed them for smaller combs.

You shouldn't have to enforce anything. They are chickens not laws.

Rose Comb Breeds can have some throw backs, but if you're going off of Hatchery Stock as the baseline, then they were probably mixed breeds.

I've not heard of Maiden Rocks but will look them up.

 

[varidgerunner]

Wattles are as much an issue for frostbite as combs, both being a non issue with a properly ventilated roost structure in most of the United States. Back before I ditched most of my side breeding projects, I was dabbling with leghorn asil cross. Trying to get the asil head on a leghorn body with a little nicer breast. Leghorns grow fast, but never big. The fast growth is a trait up for grabs with the leghorn genetics. A second cross of leghorn knocked most broodiness out, but you lost some of the ease of handling with the asil (extremely tame toward humans, yet alert). The F1s were cut back to one brood a year instead of three or four. I never kept them and crossed enough to fix the asil comb and lack of wattles. I didn't keep them long enough to see what the longevity was like either, the asils can be hatching chicks out at the decade and a half mark. I let that project go, but there were interesting things there. A lot of our breeds came as a result of a game cross on a production bird.

There is a genetic well worth drawing from in some of these unique antique lines of gamefowl. There are a lot of traits to work with, you've seen a little with the sumatra, that multispurred and hen spurred trait is not unique to sumatra. (Spurless roosters are out there, too). There are crested birds that aren't polish and silkies, that have very functional crests. Not to mention about any color you want to work with. There are families that are autosexing as well. But you have to be willing to step outside of the idea of crossing up a bunch of what you have on hand, or what is really easy to get, to make a new breed that might not be all that special.

 

[Indyshent]

Pretty much all chickens were games for the first millenia through the 1800s or so when chicken fancy really caught on, so all breeds eventually can be traced to games. I've dealt with a few game birds, but I haven't been all that amazed, they're usually nice enough with people and make for very alert parents and great broodies, but they're not functional for my needs. I love that some of them even live to fifteen--let alone are still producing at that age. How cool!

The games in my area are universally horribly treated though. Even when they're not being used in illegal fighting, they're being allowed to roam pretty much feral throughout the urban neighborhood, kept in tiny cages, or given a couple feet of wire and staked in a yard with no shelter. Beat up game cocks sometimes wander in my yard and beat themselves bloody trying to get in with my birds. Sometimes they even attack me. Can't say I've enjoyed dealing with them, but I'm sure these are terrible specimens.

The Sumatra line I dealt with were surprisingly docile with people, good layers and didn't fight anywhere near as much as I'd thought they would. If I could he down to a single breed again, I might go with the Sumatra from that line (if I could get a hold of some). While a lot of people really like that tail carriage, I don't care for it because it looks ratty and awful as soon as it rains. Sumatra do make for lovely half breeds universally though.

I know spurless roosters exist and would love to get one, but I've never seen one and don't know of anyone who keeps them. Very neat feature but not something every day, by any stretch. Besides looking cool, multiple spurs don't seem to get as long or pointy, which is part of why I like that trait. I just haven't gotten a hold of either type yet. My Welsummers never successfully hatched any chicks with that spurred hen trait, but it's a wishlist thing to get into a breed for me. They weren't more aggressive and laid wonderfully, so I don't know of any reason to avoid that trait.

I haven't heard of other breeds besides Sumatra that reliably have the multi-spur trait. I'm sure other birds exist with said trait, but I've never heard of them. As there doesn't seem to be a great reason for avoiding that trait, and it looks pretty cool, I can't see why someone wouldn't try to fix it into some other line or breed.

I'm not working with mutts and birds of low quality because I want to; I'm working with these birds because they're what I have. Finances, space, time and marital relations all place enormous strain on the project. I can learn about the genetics at least as well with my handful of cheap, poor quality birds as anyone can with expensive birds, and as the learning process is the real point to this project, I don't see any need to acquire expensive or even high quality stock. Yes, realizing the dream of a better bird might take less time with better birds (especially ones with better understood alleles), but there's just as much to be learned this way and the start up is free because I already have everything I need. No one doubts that building a better bird is easier when breeding better birds (at least, it generally works that way) but better birds (certainly the *best* birds) are not always available or within a budget. The cost outweighs the benefit in that scenario. I'm on the bunny course and getting my genetics feet under me still. There are some things which simply must be learned through experience, and I think I'm at the point where I need to supplement my research with actual breeding experience and selecting for traits that I believe will make a chicken which is interesting, productive and suited for this so-called "temperate" climate (aka both heat- and cold-tolerant).

Yes, domestic animals are adaptable creatures but only an idiot keeps his three-pound Chihuahua as an outside dog in the Great White North. Some animals have been bred to be especially well suited for specific climates. I count it a great success that any Mediterranean breeds can make it at all in Indiana--let alone places which are colder yet than here--but let's not forget how many generations that breed has been here in the States, how rigorously both breeders and birds have been breeding that glorious feature into them (and generally abusing, neglecting, and taking that bird for granted, too). Other Mediterranean breeds have not fared as well in harsher climates, but the Leghorn's history as a landrace and it's battery of dedicated breeders certainly didn't adversely affect that adaptability.

I have seen small single combs that still got frostbite. The weather here isn't just really cold or really hot--it rapidly shifts between extremes, and that wreaks havoc with everything here. We can go from 75 and sunny to a foot of snow overnight, and back to 55 almost as fast. In other words, there's a lot of melting and freezing going on, and that's what tends to lead to frostbite. The water falling from melting icicles one day would be relatively harmless if the weather staid fairly warm, but this is the Midwest, and Mother Nature is moody here, so that harmless drip is probably going to freeze again in short order. And melt. And freeze. I've yet to see a big, pretty five-pointer on a bird more than two years old here--certainly not for birds which are allowed outside.

I also can't guarantee a bird is going to have brain one because it tends to be the super-alert, wily guys with the giant single combs who just *have* to roost in trees during snowstorms. Good free ranging, flock protecting instincts always seem to come with the idiocy of roosting in trees during inclement weather. Rain, snow, sleet, hurricanes, tornadoes--won't matter to them. He'll be up a tree like Lieutenant Dan, crowing with all his might, "YOU CALL THIS A STORM?! AHAHAHA!"

Yes, proper care of a bird can significantly reduce or eliminate the risk of frostbite, but I'm not going to breed a bird and assume that everyone I sell a chick to will provide the absolute best care for said bird. I want a bird that can thrive anywhere it's housed. I won't call it my super bird til I know it's a tank and can take anything. I want to make a bird that can thrive in appalling conditions even because I've seen people treat their chickens like that. I've even seen more neglected birds than pampered birds because to most poultry keepers, chickens are not expensive enough to treat well. Foremost, I want a healthy bird. All other features are extraneous. However, as some traits tend to go along with lessened health and fitness, said traits are not preferred to traits which do not adversely affect a bird's health.

As single combs are recessive, I expect that they'll be popping up for eons, even if I cull all single combed birds right now. I'm going to see how this crop of birds handle this winter and select my spring breeders from that point. While it's possible that birds with single combs may make that cut, they're not likely to *outperform* other comb types when it comes to the cold (even if they will outperform a male homozygous rose comb for fertility). If I were in a place with a warmer and/or drier winter, I'd go for fancy five-pointers in a heartbeat.

***I've worked in animal control, live in a crappy neighborhood which is seemingly full of cockfighters, and am an aspiring veterinarian, so I've probably seen some things, and such experience is bound to give me a different perspective. I've never been to chicken show, and I've never actually met someone who raises exhibition fowl.

 

[varidgerunner]

In the experience that you have indicated, it is likely that you have come across mostly bankiva type gamefowl,( American, Old English or Spanish games). Those are probably the hardiest, and able to live in nearly feral conditions. Many do have a single comb, and many people that keep them dub their combs and wattles. They do like to fly high and can lose comb and wattles when the weather gets bad. There are however, "roundheads" among the bankiva games, but most have wattles.

I came to dislike the flighty alertness and high roosting antics of the American games, although a better survivor and broody you won't find. I much prefer the Oriental games. Mainly because they look like dinosaurs. They have the instincts necessary to survive, yet birds that tame down as well simply don't exist. Many times at agrotourism, petting zoo type events I have selected a random rooster, with very little handling beforehand, and have him perched on a towel while screaming kids run around. They just set there, soaking in the admiration. Most birds would kill themselves trying to get away. The difference is in the traits selected for. The bankiva type birds were used in a manner more consistent with what for humans would be MMA, the Orientals were used in a manner more cosistent with sumo. It was an endurance thing.

So conditioning was a big part of this, still is in their homelands. Human contact and interaction was an everyday thing, and intense. Bathing and exercising feeding and watering by a human handler. So human aggression has been selected against for a long time, as well as flightiness. In Vietnam a bird might be a village champion in the same way we might view a sports hero here. This is where you see the spurless birds, a bird was too valuable to lose. Endurance was more the object, and a lethal outcome was not necessarily desired, historically. But the hens still had to raise chicks semi feral, and they had to have some utilitarian traits, in those cultures. They had to multitask to some extent.

Asils can come multi-spurred in certain lines. Hen spurs can come in many game birds, I always found the hen spur to be really sharp, traditionally viewed as very desireable, but realistically not that nice. The cubalaya has the multispurred gene in some lines. They are nice birds, more like your sumatras and not as "game", yet still having good survival instincts. But they do have the long and low tail set, beautiful until drug through the mud. For a truly utilitarian all weather tail, the henny trait in roosters always fascinated me, but I have yet to have any with that trait.

The downside to the orientals is their hard tight feathering, like the cornish they spawned. It is not given to damp or drafty winter conditions. And the gameness, the hens don't even get along all that well in the asils, but that trait is easily bred out after several generations. "Gameness" does not make a bird any more inclined to fight, leghorns and silkies are just as prone as any game rooster to have disputes. The difference lies in the fact that they won't stop once they begin, even if they are losing. Totally genetic trait.

Now as for neat traits, find a shamo with a rhino horn. They are out there, very rare. Somebody needs to run with that. I would pay good money for some frizzled longcrowers with Dong Tao foot scales and a rhino horn, but only if they laid olive eggs and were fibromelanistic. They would need to have shamo size and stature of course.

 

[Indyshent]

In the experience that you have indicated, it is likely that you have come across mostly bankiva type gamefowl,( American, Old English or Spanish games). Those are probably the hardiest, and able to live in nearly feral conditions. Many do have a single comb, and many people that keep them dub their combs and wattles. They do like to fly high and can lose comb and wattles when the weather gets bad. There are however, "roundheads" among the bankiva games, but most have wattles.

I came to dislike the flighty alertness and high roosting antics of the American games, although a better survivor and broody you won't find. I much prefer the Oriental games. Mainly because they look like dinosaurs. They have the instincts necessary to survive, yet birds that tame down as well simply don't exist. Many times at agrotourism, petting zoo type events I have selected a random rooster, with very little handling beforehand, and have him perched on a towel while screaming kids run around. They just set there, soaking in the admiration. Most birds would kill themselves trying to get away. The difference is in the traits selected for. The bankiva type birds were used in a manner more consistent with what for humans would be MMA, the Orientals were used in a manner more cosistent with sumo. It was an endurance thing.

So conditioning was a big part of this, still is in their homelands. Human contact and interaction was an everyday thing, and intense. Bathing and exercising feeding and watering by a human handler. So human aggression has been selected against for a long time, as well as flightiness. In Vietnam a bird might be a village champion in the same way we might view a sports hero here. This is where you see the spurless birds, a bird was too valuable to lose. Endurance was more the object, and a lethal outcome was not necessarily desired, historically. But the hens still had to raise chicks semi feral, and they had to have some utilitarian traits, in those cultures. They had to multitask to some extent.

Asils can come multi-spurred in certain lines. Hen spurs can come in many game birds, I always found the hen spur to be really sharp, traditionally viewed as very desireable, but realistically not that nice. The cubalaya has the multispurred gene in some lines. They are nice birds, more like your sumatras and not as "game", yet still having good survival instincts. But they do have the long and low tail set, beautiful until drug through the mud. For a truly utilitarian all weather tail, the henny trait in roosters always fascinated me, but I have yet to have any with that trait.

The downside to the orientals is their hard tight feathering, like the cornish they spawned. It is not given to damp or drafty winter conditions. And the gameness, the hens don't even get along all that well in the asils, but that trait is easily bred out after several generations. "Gameness" does not make a bird any more inclined to fight, leghorns and silkies are just as prone as any game rooster to have disputes. The difference lies in the fact that they won't stop once they begin, even if they are losing. Totally genetic trait.

Now as for neat traits, find a shamo with a rhino horn. They are out there, very rare. Somebody needs to run with that. I would pay good money for some frizzled longcrowers with Dong Tao foot scales and a rhino horn, but only if they laid olive eggs and were fibromelanistic. They would need to have shamo size and stature of course.

What a wishlist!

I've heard some really nasty things are done to the birds to make the giant dino feet though, but I haven't bumped into anyone that raises them (and would *really know* how that happens).

I'd wondered what the "roundhead" thing meant so thanks for explaining that. I like the look of the OEG, but the temperament can really run the gamut.

Asiatic game fowl are very neat (ermagersh, Longcrowers! Laughing chickens, too!), but I've heard some crazy things on their temperaments too by people who used to raise them. Apparently, a lot of people are trying to go for nasty temperaments and MMA with them, which I abhor. I'd been looking to get some Shamo at one point a few years ago because I'd heard about how great they were with people and what nice broodies they were, but holy cow, the stories I heard! Kids getting flogged, losing chunks of fingers, terrible stuff. I suppose now it's kind of like getting a dog: you want to know the breeder really, really well.

The hard feathers and bald chests don't help with winter hardiness if the Dark Cornish I've met were any indication. Lovely markings but nasty temperaments with mixed flocks, and they're always catching colds here. Might be the strain I met, but I didn't see anything amazing enough I'd want to keep it from them with all the hassle I've seen breeders go through to keep them.

 

[Kiki]

I have zero valuable input for your project.
I'm just following along.
I love your idea about 'doing with what you have on hand.'
Anyone can go out and buy things...it's way better, IMO, to do things your way.

 

[Indyshent]

Optimus Prime's eye is 100% and has been for quite awhile. I've just hen stupid busy with classes and family stuff here. Got a bunch if very challenging exams coming up this week for microbiology and organic chemistry.