thinking about getting a dog, advice welcome (long-ish)

[michickenwrangler]

If you get a fairly young dog that is not a herding breed (Queensland heeler, collie) it will learn fairly quickly that you don't want it chasing the livestock. When my dog was just a pup, I took her out to the farm I worked and boarded my horse at and she thought she would do what the heelr did--nip at the horses' heels. My horse cocked an ear back, turned her head just slightly and gave her a little kick with her hoof, not hard but enough to say "stop!" I think that was more effective than any training I could give her. She has never done it since. Also, Blaze (the dog) has been around cattle, horses & poultry since she was a few months old so she doesn't see them as something to play with. When I was brooding chicks in my mother's kitchen, her dog was FAR more interested in the chicks than Blaze. But he's a city dog.

Like Rosalind said, dogs are excellent for keeping vermin at bay. We have no coyotes come on our property and rarely see skunks, raccoons or opossums. My dad fights with squirrels in his house an "borrows" Blaze for a weekend or two occasionally. Rodents, cats and wild turkeys are the only animals she's allowed to chase. (The neighbor cats try to fish in our pond)

If you get a hold of a breed rescue (I would suggest a retriever since you have small children at home and they are more tolerant of getting poked and prodded and having eyelids pulled than other breeds) and they can help find an individual to suit your needs. A lot of breed rescues have dogs in the 18 month range when they grow out of the cute puppy stage and haven't settled down yet. Being a novice to the dog world, find a good obedience trainer to work with. Most encourage the whole family to participate.

I never did obedience w/ Blaze (mainly because she ran around on 200 acres all day while I rode fence or moved cattle and I could easily run her down on horseback and was so tired when we got home at night that she didn't run off) When I lived in the city last year, I noticed that my mother's dog had much better "walking" manners. He heeled, didn't snarl at small dogs and didn't wander all over the sidewalk like Blaze does.

Also, because you have small children, figure out a "Keep-safe" spot for the dog where the kids are not allowed to bother it, even for petting. This could be your room, a crate or an out of the way corner. That way when the dog has enough of having its teeth counted by a 3 yr old, it can retreat for a few moments of peace & quiet

 

[ChickenToes]

Go to the library and check out one of those 'encyclopedia of the dog' books. Pick out a few different breeds that you think may work with your lifestyle, and then narrow it down from there.

I have a Bloodhound. We only got her after I spent hours reading up on the breed on the internet. We got her because 1) we wanted the companionship, 2) Bloodhounds are gentle giants once they mature, and 3) we wanted a dog we could take out in the woods with us.

Yes, dogs are more work than cats. But the companionship is unrivaled - they are a combination friend, playmate, and guardian.

I also live in a mosquito (and wood tick!) pit. It's really not an issue, they never seem to bother the dog. Plus, she has a thick coat, so I'm not even sure a mosquito could reach through all that hair to bite her. We can leave her out in the yard on a chain and she'll be rolling around in the grass for an hour, and she's had one tick this year. Just invest in a really good flea and tick treatment.

As for cost, yes, dogs can be extremely expensive, if you take them to a vet. Our dog has never been to a vet. She gets all of her shots from the breeder we got her from. You can also just buy the shots yourself. I'm not sure how much they would cost where you live, but here at the local feed store it's less than $7 for the yearly shots. We will take her to a vet to get her spayed obviously, but that's it.

If you get a breed that's not prone to being hyper, they are not difficult to train. I have no trouble housebreaking puppies, and I don't even mind the chewing stage at 2-5 months...it's after that that they drive me nuts. They get into that "I'm a teenager and don't need to listen to you" stage. But once they get close to a year old, it gets so much easier. My dog is just over a year old, she pretty much sleeps all day, and I'm still teaching her new tricks.

If you really think you'd like a dog, just keep on researching. I never in my life thought that I would love an animal as much as I love our dog.

 

[Hangin Wit My Peeps]

wow this is a book!

I have a lot to say...

To start I want to say that I've had A LOT of dogs growing up...all I was responsible for and then I worked at a veterinarian office for a few years also. Here is what I recommend: And this is my opinion of course so I hope no one harps on me.
My very first recommendation is that you get a puppy (from the shelter if possible) IF you have kids (unless these kids are 16 or older) The reasoning behind that is that raising this dog from a puppy you KNOW what kind of life it's had and you don't have to worry about it snapping if your kids pull an ear or fall on it (trust me...the best ACTING dog can do that). A dog that is a year old has already had it's training in by who ever raised it and it's programmed into the dog (NO changing that (I have worked with trainers with my dog, every one of them say that, and I believe it to be true) ). We have adopted many dogs and we have had many dogs from puppy stage and the puppy staged dogs, becasue we raised them grew up to protect us and trust us, and one of those dogs saved my child from falling down the stairs. The adopted dogs were not as trusting with my kids...just little things I noticed with them; most were ok behaved but not the same at all as the others. One big problem with people dropping their dogs off at the shelter is that they prob hadn't worked with them and they had some sort of behavioural prob (most not told to the shelter becasue these people don't want to look bad) and you bring that problem home with you. Unless you have ALOT Of time to work with an adopted OLDER pet I would highly recommend not getting one .
As for mosquitoes...PLEASE remember to always keep your pet on the heart worm meds every month, it will save you a LOT of money and time if your pet would happen to get heartworm (WAY more common now a days) Another thing about older dogs...IF you have chickens there will prob be no way you can trust the older dog with them ever unless he is ok with them from the start. A pup you can raise (put chicks all over him while little) to get used to them.

Just a little over 90% of the dogs that were adopted last year at our shelter were returned becasue they could not "break" them of their bad habits...(this happens in most shelters) and the only reason is becasue the previous owner did not take care of them

We recently had a women come into the hotel I work for and they had rescued a VERY large dog from the shelter at a year old. She said it was THE worst behaved dog ever but with her determination he is now a pretty good dog. She had to work with him (A MINIMUM) of 6 hours every day to get him this way she told me (KUDOS TO HER). She had no children so she didn't know if he would bite kids but she still was not able to get him to stop growling at her when she put her hand in his food dish while he was eating (She just now leaves him be). This you have to break at puppy stage by putting your hand in their dish every day or several times a day while they are eating and if they snap at you grab their snout very firm and say NO(showing him YOUR alpha male). Works like a charm. SORRY for the book but one last thing...I agree with those who say get a fenced in yard also. That helps from YOU haveing to go out each time he needs to go out. To me, dogs are not that hard to deal with (yes, vacations ARE indeed a minimum here) but they are well worth the love they show you if you take care of them. It's ALOT of time and (IF nothing serious comes up) an average of a thousand to fifteen hundred a year for health care for them. Now you can get away with cheaper if you have them live outdoors in a pen and never take them to a vet but people who do that SHOULD NOT have pets IMO
Another thing I have found working at the vets office...get a mixed breed pet rather then a pure-bred. Ceaper for you and they are a much healthier pet throughout their lives. They rarely have problems at all. Many of the pures are inbreed which causes a lot of different problems for different types dogs...for example a pure breed golden are prone to hip displaysia...a boxer is prone to bloat...etc...each breed is "prone" to something it seems. We had a mixed golden and he was THE best dog we had ever had...he is also the one to save my daughter from falling down cement steps

A LOT OF THEM! He lived to be 21 years old and was very healthy up to those last days when we had to finally put him to sleep.
Mixed pups are usually very easy to find at the shelter and you kill two birds with one stone...you save a dog AND you get a pup to raise with your family as YOUR dog and save a lot of time vs RETRAIN someone elses dog. Just my two cents

 

[Davaroo]

I'll speak frankly with you, if I may, since it's you, Pat.

Anyhow, she (the cat) was the main thing stopping us from getting a dog,

Never let cats deter you from owning a dog. Cats and dogs learn to get along in their own ways. They are good for one another, in fact. And I don't say that lightly - I have both. Trust me they learn to co-habit without you worrying over them.

Pros: It would be really fun to have a dog (I've never had one; DH grew up with retriever dogs and would be THRILLED for us to get one although he seems surprisingly ignorant about dog health/care/behavior/training since he never really participated in anything other than playing-with). Our kids (2 and 5) would probably enjoy a well-chosen dog. And we will presumably get a dog *eventually* anyhow, no matter what, although if not now, it may have to wait til the older two of the cats pass on.

Simply put, humans SHOULD have a dog around. Actually I'm convinced that you should have TWO, as they need the companionship of their own kind. Both lives, dog and human, are enriched by the other. As for the cat, see above...

C

Cons: Dogs seem pretty expensive to keep (food, vet care) compared to a cat (if we don't get a dog, we WILL get another cat).
Dogs are a lot more work than cats. We live in a giant mosquito swamp and I can't see how we could take the dog out to do its business between dusk and sunrise in the mosquito-ey months of the year, and 10 hrs seems like a long time to expect a dog to 'hold it'.
It will be similarly unpleasant walking the dog when it's -20 F with a 30 mph wind.
And it seems like there are just so many ways for a dog adoption to go wrong -- unforseen aggression, destroying the house (teeth, toilet habits), chasing the horses, bothering the chickens in the run, kids bothering dog, dog getting loose and running out onto the road with its many speeding gravel trucks and commuters, etc.

You wanna talk expensive? Have a horse! Dogs pale in comparison. Oh wait you already do!!

Any worries over dogs are mostly in your mind, Pat.
They are very simply overcome by anwering The Question - DO YOU WANT A DOG?

Go with your gut rection on this one - no logic allowed. The first gut answer that comes to your mind is the one you stick with.

If it's YES, you will find they are little more trouble than a large flock of chickens and several horses. I mean, c'mon kiddo, this is me and you talking here - you manage all those other critters already and you're fussing over a dog? You have to train them and keep up with them, yes. But, so?

If you answer NO to The Question, then avoid them. You'll be better off. Get another cat and visit your family's dog now and then.
Your long list of CONS implies we already know the answer....

(If we did get a dog, it would be from a shelter or rescue and would have to be at least a year old (preferably a bit older) and reasonably well documented to be good with kids, good with cats (and non chasey to other animals in general), and no discernable aggression issues.)

Pat, honey, why don't you ask for it to be gold plated too?
Seriously, dump the list of "must have's" and accept the dog for what it is. Dogs are social anmals and they must fit into a new dynamic when adopted. This is rarely simple, and there will be some strife all around. A dog that was a milquetoast over there, may not be at your place. It is what it is.
Getting a shelter dog is a great step to minimizing some of this, as you do have some assurances. But being overly fussy about a hundred "what if's" with any dog is a fruitless waste of energy.

Any and all advice is welcomed...

hmmm... are you sure?

So, please read my mind and foresee my future

and tell me whether I sound like I should be arguing for or against a dog when I discuss this with DH?

Read your mind? You are shaky and leaning away from the dog. You have a zillion conditions that must be met, but you are dealing with a living creature that knows nothing of all that. Would you ask similar things of your chickens, horses ot cats? And if so, would you expect them to be met, unequivocably?
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NOTE: 'Not to get too deep here, but the animals you currently have say you shun involvement on some level - I mean chickens, horses and cats can be kept at a distance, as you choose. In fact, two out of three, generally MUST be. Dogs, on the other hand, are intimate, and they require intimate involvement from you.
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The thing to do, is to answer The Question, first.

Then let the shelter handle all the details like shots and so on, and then make your selections based on simple things like: hair length, size, sex, age and so on.

After that you have to learn to live together. I have 5 dogs and I can assure you, the dog wants nothing more than that from you.​

 

[Cara]

In terms of breed selection, it doesn't always pay to pick a breed on general characteristics (as with any other kind of animal). Obviously there are some breeds that just won't work for reasons of size, maintenance etc. I'm trying my best not to turn this into a 'you just have to get a ....., my family has them and they wash the car, make the beds, cook dinner, tapdance etc... ' debate. The most useful thing I found was to think about what I wanted from a dog, narrow it down to a few breeds that commonly have those traits, and then pick one that obviously had one or more of those breeds in her ancestry.

I had just lost a Coonhound that was hit by a car, so ruled out another hound that would have selective hearing. That didn't last long, I adopted a second hound dog two weeks later, but that's another story

I wanted something easily trainable that could be trusted off leash, no aggression or guarding instinct, playful and friendly, and a 'real dog' that could do a job. I narrowed it down to some kind of working breed, such as a Retriever, Spaniel, Pointer, Collie etc. I particularly wanted a Brittany, but they didn't have any of those

They are the perfect size for a family dog, but we're not getting into that...

I didn't exactly come back with what I went in for. I wanted an adult dog and got a four month old puppy, but I can honestly say she was better behaved than the best adult dog. I didn't want a long-haired dog, she leaves black tumbleweeds everywhere. However, her temperament is far and above anything that I could have hoped for, and that makes all the difference in the world. She's half Lab, half who knows what. The best guess is Setter or Golden Retriever.

What I would not do is pick a dog thats ancestry is completely unclear. It might be wonderful, it might not, but i'd always hedge my bets as an unwanted trait may raise its head. That's possible with any breed, e.g a Lab that won't fetch, a Border Collie that is not interested in sheep, but i'd rather have the odds in my favour.

 

[patandchickens]

This thread has fully lived up to my hopes for its usefulness, thank you all very much

I think that some of the posts miss the mark but only because you don't know me, which is fair enough

And even those, which I do agree with in principle, have been good to think about and think through the issues raised.

Quote:
This is it in a nutshell, for me. With anything but especially with animals, I feel like it's important for me to be really honest and realistic about the bad aspects before going ahead with irreversible decisions.

Quote:
Yes, yes I really do. A lot. You know what, despite all the disadvantages I can enumerate and the inconvenient things that will have to be worked out, I nonetheless stupidly just WANT a dog after all

(As does everyone else in the house)

And, having discussed it with DH now, that seems to be our final answer. We will get a dog. We are now officially on the market, in a general sort of way.

OTOH we are not in a great roaring hurry about it, and I have talked DH into agreeing to *also* get another cat now <hee hee hee> and that will have to settle in first. So, once we have a new cat integrated, I will start looking around for a good quality used dog or puppy

(for those who were concerned, dog will most likely be mixed breed -- that's my strong preference for vet bill reasons, although of course dogs are individuals -- and I am already asking around locally for recommendations on good obedience courses

)

It may not happen right away, as I am not inclined to just scoop up the first dog that comes down the pike or even the tenth one (and most shelter dogs in the greater Toronto metropolitan area are there for, you know, good reasons

):

Quote:
Pat, honey, why don't you ask for it to be gold plated too?<snip>
Getting a shelter dog is a great step to minimizing some of this, as you do have some assurances. But being overly fussy about a hundred "what if's" with any dog is a fruitless waste of energy.

Jeez David, I don't think that's a hundred gold-plated what if's... it's not like I'm saying "has to be this color" "has to be this breed" "has to be this gender or personality" etc etc. I just think that I have a responsibility to the kids and cats to try to get a dog that has the maximum chance of fitting in smoothly here; and that I owe it to the dog for the same reason.

I've just seen enough things not work out -- sometimes spectacularly, sometimes just in a low-level chronic way -- for other people, that I'd rather do what I can to stack the odds in our favor. OBVIOUSLY no animal is without surprises and bad habits, and I wholly expect a dog to barf all over the rug at times, do obnoxious things, and behave less than peacefully with cats, children, horses, chickens, etc. But I'd rather pick a dog with a known track record of showing no signs of real problems (and to me, the biggest real problem would be aggression issues, on any subject) because it's lived in a cats-and-kids foster home for a while, rather than the Mystery Surprise Box that showed up at the shelter yesterday and nobody can really tell what it'll be like.

Is that really so unreasonable? I sure don't think so.

I am extremely glad I asked for youse guys' opinions, though. Both to sort out what I think (which turns out to be somewhat of a surprise to me, frankly

) and also because I got a lot of really good insights (like Rosalind's comment on the exercise value of a dog) and practical suggestions (like Cara's suggestion of a dog door, and michickenwrangler's recommendation of a safe spot indoors for the cat to be immune from kids, and honestly pretty much everybody who contributed to this thread gave me valuable food for thought.

Thank you all again

,

Pat

 

[Davaroo]

I deliberately worded it in that manner Pat to keep you thinking - call it goading, just between friends.

I know you are trying to do the right thing by your choices, and Im happy to hear it. You'll do fine.

 

[kycklingmamma]

Have you ever considered the most cat like of all dogs?
The Basenji, it doesn't bark, more like yodels, chortles and gutteral vocalization, and it cleans itself like a cat, i.e licks its paws and cleans its face and such. Very intelligent and stoic breed.
I highly recommend them, being that I have one, 5 mo old Brindle boy, Otis. They are not for every one, but truly a unique breed worth checking into.

 

[taraann81]

Quote:
I have not read this entire thread. I just read the part in this about the mosquitoes and thought, hmm sounds like where I live. Then I saw you were from Ont, too.

 

[KittyKelly]

PLEASE just watch the Dog Whisperer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a VERY STRONG believer in his methods. He has a couple books out in that you could find at your library or just watch his show on the National Geographic Channel. His name is Ceasar Millan and he is like the Pat Parelli of dogs.