Too much protein

[Wifezilla]

"Beneficial nutrients, such as protein, can reach toxic levels and cause animals to stop grazing before full. This has been seen in grazing dairy herds where protein was overfed in the barn. The cows would only graze a short time, and when protein levels from high quality pasture reached toxic levels, pasture DMI would drop off. This has caused losses in milk production, leading to a cycle of feeding more stored forage in the barn. This only further restricts DMI from pasture, and eventually all the benefits of pasturing are lost."
http://www.extension.org/article/19660
I disagree with the "toxic protein" comment. It isn't the protein itself that is toxic, but the lack of other macronutrients that is a problem (see rabbit starvation in humans).

The same thing happens with humans... higher protein levels means less overall food consumption.
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-384411.html
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/82/1/1
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/23/5/373

Same thing happens with cats and dogs.

Again, I feed a 22% protein feed. Have done so for years with many breeds including Large Fowl Modern & Old English Games as well as Malays. I have never experienced any fertility problems.

Makes perfect sense to me. I get weird looks at the feed store when I buy game bird feed and they know I have ducks, but I do not have the issues with my ducks that people feeding them flock raiser do (holes in foot webbing, overall leg weakness, prone to injury, etc..). I got 2 ducks from someone who had their ducks on flock raiser until we traced their issues to the feed. She no longer uses it as far as I know.​

 

[Germaine_11.20]

Ok this is both off and on subject. The questions I ask are not meant to cause offense, I am trying to learn and understand.

During the summer my cats eat the grasshoppers out here like crazy. They become very thin. I feed them plenty of choice cat food.
When I asked the vet why he said it was all the extra protein that they are getting. Doesn't quite make sense to me but could and does this affect chickens that way?
Has anyone ever done a side by side comparison of the same breed fed one level of protein compared to a higher level and then followed the results for longevity and illness in the birds?
How and why does the extra protein affect fertility?

Wifezilla, would the cats be thin because they don't eat as much cat food which has fat in it? Hmmm I think I answered it myself LOL!

 

[NYREDS]

I have not done a side by side study but anecdotally I am certain that my birds do better now with their 22% protein feed than they did when I fed a more conventional starter-grower-layer program. In fact I wish I could say I thought of the one feed program myself but I didn't, I learned it from another vert successful breeder. Since then have talked with several other people who do the same thing for the same reasons.
The talk of the dangers of excessive protein is interesting I suppose but in this thread what ahs been talked about is protein in the 20-22% range. I don't think there's anything to suggest that protein in this range would be problematic.
When the Atkins Diet was first introduced there were all sorts of dire warnings about it's inevitable negative consequences. Long term studies have indicated the opposite. People's kidneys handled the extra protein just fine.

 

[Teach97]

The problems associated with cattle have to do with their different digestive system. Too high of a protein content will cause the microbes to reproduce too quickly and you will have bloat issues. This can lead to death easily.

Types of protein (read as nitrogen) can also lead to issues. Many creatures cannot handle specific forms. Horses are usually thought of here in reference to...um...well...brain gas release

Protein is not typically an issue with creatures that have systems designed to digest higher protein feeds...especially when fed as part of a balanced diet...correct vitamins and such.

 

[Germaine_11.20]

OK here is another thought on the subject. When the chickens free range there is really no control over their protein levels. They are going to eat bugs, worms, grasshoppers ect... they must be made for this or I would guess that they wouldn't eat them?
You don't see horses or cows eating grasshoppers, bugs and worms.
As far as kidneys go--lots of water and never run out.

I guess it is a personal preference based on experience. The only way to know is to try different %'s with different breeds and watch the results.

 

[Wynette]

if you're still having feather plucking issues, it's most likely due to overcrowding (that's typically the biggest reason for feather plucking). It's tough this time of year to keep them entertained, because they often spend so much time inside rather than venturing out. You can give them things to keep them busy, such as a Purina Flock Block, inside their enclosure; also, hang a head of cabbage or stuff a suet feeder with nutritious goodies such as dark, leafy greens; they have to work at getting them out, and it entertains their little minds and is often all it takes to get them to quit feather plucking. GOOD LUCK!

 

[Wifezilla]

Wifezilla, would the cats be thin because they don't eat as much cat food which has fat in it? Hmmm I think I answered it myself LOL!

Close....it is because they are eating fewer CARBOHYDRATES. There is a lot of fat and protein in insects, http://www.food-insects.com/Insects as Human Food.htm but the fat doesn't make you (or your cat) fat. Carbs do.

When the chickens free range there is really no control over their protein levels. They are going to eat bugs, worms, grasshoppers ect... they must be made for this or I would guess that they wouldn't eat them?

Yup!​

 

[redstars]

Quote:
Thanks Wynette. I also am having a minor feather eating problem in my group and was about to switch
from my Nutrena crumbles to another feed until I saw this thread.
I will pick up a flock block and give it a try.

 

[briteday]

Quote:
Close....it is because they are eating fewer CARBOHYDRATES. There is a lot of fat and protein in insects, http://www.food-insects.com/Insects as Human Food.htm but the fat doesn't make you (or your cat) fat. Carbs do.

When the chickens free range there is really no control over their protein levels. They are going to eat bugs, worms, grasshoppers ect... they must be made for this or I would guess that they wouldn't eat them?

Yup!​

Same issues for most animals designed for protein intake.

Ruminants, on the other hand, require greens for proper digestion. And dogs do not even posses the gastric enzymes to break down plant cells to allow absorption of the nutrients in plant material.

My dogs and cat are fed strictly a meat-based raw diet, about 80-85% protein, 15% +/- fat. I have been feeding raw for years and my dogs are consistently healthy and live to ripe, old ages. As for my chickens I make sure that they get animal proteins several times each week. Unfortunately Purina thinks chickens shoud be vegetarian. I guess they never saw a chicken eat a bug. I mix gamebird feed with Layena because those are the two feeds I can get consistently. That gets me to about 20-22% protein. During the winter or moults I supplement with 40% kitten kibble. And anytime of the year when I have meaty kitchen scraps it goes to the chickens. We almost always have roast chicken on Sunday and they always get the carcass later in the week after leftovers are finished.

I believe the reason that most domestic animals are obese and die young is due to lack of water (kibble is VERY dry and animals rarely drink enough water to make up for it, canned is better as it contains water...if you can afford to buy someone else's canned water...) and excess carbs. The excess carbs also contribute to tooth decay in animals. Some of my dogs have come to me with many teeth missing. So I have fed them a ground up raw diet, no bone chewing. And their dental health improves, no tooth extractions ever when a dog has been fed by me. Lastly, excess carbs that are not used within the first 1-2 hours are converted to fat for storage by most animal metabolisms...including humans.

Excess protein is not good for animals with known kidney issues. However, there is no harm done to healthy kidneys by feeding a high protein diet. Most cats in the US die from kidney disease if they make it to old age. I have not had one cat die from kidney failure, not one. Yet they are all fed a high protein meat-based diet. Also as mentioned, the results of the Atkins diet fad in humans has shown that kidney problems are not common. Given enough clean water and healthy kidneys...excess protein is not a problem.

 

[Wifezilla]

As for my chickens I make sure that they get animal proteins several times each week. Unfortunately Purina thinks chickens shoud be vegetarian.

Ducks too. There is nothing I can get locally that isn't loaded with soy.

I mix gamebird feed with Layena because those are the two feeds I can get consistently. That gets me to about 20-22% protein. During the winter or moults I supplement with 40% kitten kibble.

My ducks think that high protein/low carb cat food is crack

Given the chance, they will turn to crime to get it (if they are out and you leave open the patio door, they run inside to eat it all

)

My quail FLIP OUT they get so excited when I grind it up for their treat. Lucy Lou tries to jump out of the cage and in to my hand to get it faster. Then she goes crazy trying to scratch in the bowl

. Keiko calmly walks over to the other side of the cage because she knows once I feed her crazy sister, she can calmly and peacefully get fed from my hand. Cricket runs back and forth between those two to see who has more so she can mooch while my little roo hangs out in the dusting hut muttering to himself about how crazy his women are

I believe the reason that most domestic animals are obese and die young is due to lack of water (kibble is VERY dry and animals rarely drink enough water to make up for it, canned is better as it contains water...if you can afford to buy someone else's canned water...) and excess carbs. The excess carbs also contribute to tooth decay in animals. Some of my dogs have come to me with many teeth missing. So I have fed them a ground up raw diet, no bone chewing. And their dental health improves, no tooth extractions ever when a dog has been fed by me. Lastly, excess carbs that are not used within the first 1-2 hours are converted to fat for storage by most animal metabolisms...including humans.

Excess protein is not good for animals with known kidney issues. However, there is no harm done to healthy kidneys by feeding a high protein diet. Most cats in the US die from kidney disease if they make it to old age. I have not had one cat die from kidney failure, not one. Yet they are all fed a high protein meat-based diet. Also as mentioned, the results of the Atkins diet fad in humans has shown that kidney problems are not common. Given enough clean water and healthy kidneys...excess protein is not a problem.