Tried different things but chicken still ill after 3 weeks

[brummie]

My RIR pullet is approx 8 months old. She has been laying for about 3 months.

approx 2-3 weeks ago she stopped laying and started to stand around by herself in a corner in the typical hunched position, tail down, with neck tucked in, feathers fluffed up, not very active, although she does occasionally become active for short bursts of time, scratching around on the ground before going back to the hunched position most of the day. She is loosing a lot of weight also, I can now feel her bones a lot more. She seems to be drinking as normal, but she is not eating her feed. Even treats like scratch, raisins, sunflower seeds etc she does not eat at all, however she does still go for bread and porridge and she went mad on cabbage, had a whole load of it.

It is not worms, I have hand fed her a full 7 day course of flubenvet which kills all known worms.

It is not external parasites, she was treated with ivermectin only a month ago, and there is not a parasite to be seen on her body.

I have flushed her with an epsom salt flush 3 times in 48 hours in case it was toxins from something she ate.

I have checked for impacted crop, but her crop seems fine.

she does not seem at all to be egg bound. Can't feel any lumps around abdomen.

not a big fan of chemical antibiotics, but I might do that next. However she has had a lot of natural antibiotics which are, oregano oil in water, garlic, cinnamon and cabbage (I wonder why she went mad on the cabbage?).

However around the time she became ill, one of my hens had laid a soft shelled egg overnight on coop floor. Not sure whose it was, but it might possibly be hers. Could the shell have broken inside her body if it was hers? If shell does break inside chicken, how long can they last before dying? Bear in mind she is in this condition now for approx 3 weeks. Could it be coccidiois? Can a chicken go on for this long with coccidiosis (there is no blood in poop, however it is runny and off colour but still somewhat whitish green)?

any ideas what it could be or what to do next for her? I've been nursing her for all this time and it's getting tiring not seeing her get any better or any worse either thankfully. She still has her short active bursts throughout the day.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote:
I don't think antibiotics will help. She sounds like she has Leucosis, described in one book I read as 'hereditary viral cancer' which indeed it does seem to be, as odd a phrase as that may sound.

Of course, try whatever you feel the need to, it might work, because it might not be what I think it is.

I bought some Black Australorps who carried leucosis, and also some random Silkie Pekin mutts who carried it, back when I began keeping poultry for the first time. I know better now, so I'd probably have another go in future at treating it, with the right patient/s and resources, but back then I arrived at the conclusion that I was merely prolonging the suffering, and began to cull instead. One hen lasted nearly three years, but rapidly went downhill at the end. I autopsied her, and the others, so I know it was leucosis.

Cabbage is one of the things you can use to sustain the body while trying to starve out cancer. Cabbage, onions, raw potatoes, especially the juices alone so the carbohydrates don't feed the cancer; on this diet the body can sustain for a month or so without losing any weight but that of the cancer itself. Animals (and humans too) often seek out these raw and very simple diets when fighting cancer. Not feeding the cancer the usual diet that allowed its development and growth is one way to attempt to defeat it. This would also be the reason she's avoiding her normal diet, as it feeds the cancer.

IF it's leucosis, that is. It could be other cancers, it could be other diseases or infections or internal injuries or bacterial / fungal / microbial / viral overload, or a few other things... Though you've covered a few serious bases with your treatments already and she's not responded yet.

About the eggshell, don't worry about that, you would know if she had retained eggshell in her very quickly. A soft shelled egg didn't have enough calcium laid down to develop a shell, so it didn't lose its shell, it never gained one; she is indeed the most likely layer of that egg. Disease, pain, etc all drain calcium reserves.

All in all it sounds a lot like the average leucosis carrier/sufferer in the latter stages. If she does make it, chances are her own offspring in turn will inherit it, and it's also likely others in her family carry it. Finding out which isn't easy as carriers don't always suffer from it, and there's late onset and rapid onset variations of it. The occasional bursts of feeling better were also common with my leucosis sufferers.

With my Australorps, the onset was quite late, occurring years down the track of apparently healthy lives. This is probably how it bred on unnoticed by the breeder, since they cull their birds before that point; same with my Isabrowns, they all suffered inherited neurological degenerative diseases around 3 years of age and died, not from leucosis though, but something very nasty too which someone who culls earlier would never have noticed. All these birds had varied diets and environments and lifestyles from one another, and none of it made the difference, except that some lived a few months longer. With the Pekin/Silky mutts, some of them started experiencing the onset of leucosis at a mere few weeks old and were dead within months. I identified the birds that brought it into the flock and culled them out even though they themselves were healthy and only produced it when crossed with an unrelated rooster with some Silkie genetics who also carried leucosis to some very small extent. All the carriers also produced many healthy offspring who never showed symptoms, and they produced mostly healthy offspring in turn too, but some of those birds are also carriers themselves.

While I would consider trying to treat it again, I probably wouldn't do so with an animal that wasn't on a prime diet all its life as I am pretty familiar with the pointless waste of effort it can be to try to put something in later, on that never went into the animal in the first place.

It might not even be leucosis, though.

The pose she's holding an the fluffed feathers suggests nausea and pain, standard for leucosis sufferers, and ditto for her specialized diet, complete with the choices she's making. But many diseases share symptoms. For all we know she could be acting this way because she has eaten an indigestible which as lodged in her gut and it's infected and impeding digestion to some extent, causing her to seek certain foods. I think leucosis is likelier though but I don't know for sure of course. Her body language is standard expression of illness and pain in the gut region.

If she dies, you really should consider doing or getting an autopsy to know for sure, and if it's leucosis, either never breed from her parents again, or never buy from her breeder again. This sort of problem can become a 'sleeper' issue in your flock, hard to root out when it's only the occasional breeding that produces it from hidden carriers. An autopsy for leucosis is very simple. You have a look at her intestines. They'll be covered in tumors if she had leucosis. There are threads on this site that illustrate this.

Best wishes, I hope it's something simpler to treat than leucosis.

 

[brummie]

Thanks for the detailed and informative reply. Good to know you can live off cabbage whilst trying to starve cancer.

Do you mean Lymphoid Leukosis as described at http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps044 ?

Her brother died about a month and a half ago after showing similar symptoms, as well as 2 other chickens (different breeds) from the same breeder, all within the age range of 6-9 months and all within about a month of each other, so you may be right with your diagnosis. But after I wormed the flock, I had no more problems until this RIR, so I put it down to worms at that time (I guess it's only been a month and a half). I did my first ever autopsy on her brother, and I did not get much out of it except that I know his liver was big, and I mean huge (still a newb so did not gather much else from that autopsy).

I made a mash today out of layers crumble mixed with warm water and cayenne pepper. She did eat small amounts of this. Is it carbs that feed the cancer? Should I not give her this mash? Should I just let her live of cabbage a month or so she if she can starve out the cancer and show any signs of improvement? She actually seems to be worse today, I have not noticed any bursts of activity in her today.

She seems to be drinking fine. But i'm worried about the rest of the flock now. Is this disease contagious horizontally with other flock members or is it only contagious vertically down to children?

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks for the detailed and informative reply. Good to know you can live off cabbage whilst trying to starve cancer.

Do you mean Lymphoid Leukosis as described at http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps044 ?

Her brother died about a month and a half ago after showing similar symptoms, as well as 2 other chickens (different breeds) from the same breeder, all within the age range of 6-9 months and all within about a month of each other, so you may be right with your diagnosis. But after I wormed the flock, I had no more problems until this RIR, so I put it down to worms at that time (I guess it's only been a month and a half). I did my first ever autopsy on her brother, and I did not get much out of it except that I know his liver was big, and I mean huge (still a newb so did not gather much else from that autopsy).

I made a mash today out of layers crumble mixed with warm water and cayenne pepper. She did eat small amounts of this. Is it carbs that feed the cancer? Should I not give her this mash? Should I just let her live of cabbage a month or so she if she can starve out the cancer and show any signs of improvement? She actually seems to be worse today, I have not noticed any bursts of activity in her today.

She seems to be drinking fine. But i'm worried about the rest of the flock now. Is this disease contagious horizontally with other flock members or is it only contagious vertically down to children?

Very sorry for the late reply, this site has gone awol regarding notifications of replies to threads, sometimes I get them, sometimes I don't. I didn't get yours.

About cabbage etc, it should help, but because of the vast amount of breeds of every plant we humans have developed, it's almost impossible to say for sure whether or not you have the 'right' cabbage. For example barley is known to be alkaline, but pearl barley has been bred to be acidic. You just don't know for sure what you're getting anymore, but as a general rule of thumb, the more primitive/heritage/heirloom genetics it has, the better. Either way, if she wants to eat it, it should be of benefit to her. Generally their systems tell them when something is making them worse rather than better.

I wouldn't think you need to worry about the disease spreading, while I've read that it's contagious I have only ever seen the hereditary form and the other seems very rare, if even it exists... It was an old book I read about it in, first.

I don't know what you can do for her, unfortunately, since this is an issue people have not yet found the fix for, it's very much a case of playing it by ear; sooner or later someone will find the cure. In the meantime we experiment and hope. If you force her to eat a normal diet chances are she would die quicker than if you let her choose what she wants, generally speaking, as that's been my experience with leucosis sufferers.

There are a few things it could be asides from leucosis or leukosis (it's spelled differently in different books I've read but if the form you're seeing has a 'K' in it, go with that --- I'm always having to spell words differently for this website as it uses American standard english as far as I'm aware); anyway, another forum member recently posted a very helpful post which I will quote for your usage, it should help with something, whether now or in the future.

• Avian Lymphoid Leukosis is a disease that can cause Marek's like symptoms, though signs are usually only visible upon necropsy. This virus causes lymphomas, much like Marek's disease, throughout organ tissue. Most chickens with this virus will experience weakness, and will "waste away" over time, becoming more and more emaciated as the tumors spread. This viral disease is often thought to be the 'sister disease' to Marek's, as it is very similar in many ways. Unlike Marek's disease, it can be transmitted through the egg (vertically) from parent to chick. Of important note, there have been some signs that in individual chickens with a genetic predisposition, that Serotype-2 Marek's vaccine (only hatcheries have this vaccine) may cause this disease to more rapidly harm the infected chicken. http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry/neoplasms/lymphoid_leukosis_in_poultry.html

• Heavy Metal Toxicity in chickens (and other fowl, such as ducks) can look very similar to Marek's paralysis. Lead toxicity seems to be the most common for birds like chickens, that unlike other pet birds such as parrots, generally do not chew on metal objects but may swallow small metallic objects whole. Lead shot, BBs, pellets, (etc) are often mistaken for stones and ingested to aid the bird in digestion. A single BB or piece of lead shot is enough to cause serious illness in a large fowl chicken, or even eating old lead paint flakes, or finding them in the soil is enough to harm a chicken-sized bird. Heavy metal toxicity is one of the leading medical problems that vets and wildlife rehabilitators see in ground dwelling birds such as chickens, ducks, and geese, so it can be somewhat common. Symptoms include neurological issues such as partial or total paralysis of one or both legs and sometimes the wings. With lead toxicity, lesions of the nervous system and elevated white blood counts can also mimic Marek's infection. X-rays and/or blood tests might be necessary to diagnose this problem. Treatment generally involves injections of a chelating agent such as Calsenate. Large metal objects may need to be surgically removed. This problem is very hard to diagnose without veterinary help. For more reading: http://www.birdclinic.net/avian1.htm http://www.avianweb.com/heavymetalpoisoningbirds.html

• Botulism in fowl can also mimic the symptoms of Marek's, in that it often causes neurological distress and paralysis. Often birds with botulism will present leg weakness, and neck weakness or paralysis. This can come on quite suddenly or gradually, depending on how much of the Botulism toxin has been consumed by the bird. Botulism is caused by the consumption of the toxin, either from decaying material (usually decaying carcasses) or eating an abundance of invertebrates that have been infected with the Botulsim toxin (such as maggots that have been feeding on decaying material). Generally, if a bird survives more than 48 hours, it will recover, so if Botulism is suspected in birds with sudden paralysis, immediate treatment is necessary. For more reading on Botulism consult the following: http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry/botulism/overview_of_botulism_in_poultry.html and http://www.avianweb.com/botulism.html

• Viral tenosynovitis is a viral form of arthritis that is transmitted in chickens and turkeys. Transmission is generally via fecal material of infected birds. Infected birds experience lameness and hock inflammation, swelling of the tendon sheaths (the 'tubes' that the leg tendons are encased in), and general lack of mobility of the legs. It is most commonly seen in commercial meat birds and has been reported less commonly in commercial leghorns in the past. Photos with more info (warning, necropsy images): http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/200/reovirus-infections

• Mycoplasma synoviae (MS) is another disease of poultry that might look like Marek's. This bacterial disease affects chickens and turkeys, but may also infect other commonly kept fowl. It is a relatively common disease, and easily transmitted. Like Marek's, symptoms include lameness/paralysis of the legs and reluctance to stand and walk, as well as blue/purple comb and or wattles due to respiratory distress. The hock (ankle) and wing joints may become swollen. Birds may also experience rales (roughness of breath, rattling, wheezing) and may have some respiratory discharge. http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou...nfection_in_poultry_infectious_synovitis.html

• Mycoplasma gallisepticum (MG) is similar to MS, in that it is a mycoplasma infection, is very common in chickens, and is easily spread. It can cause paralysis and lameness in birds, similar to Marek's, but is generally accompanied by respiratory distress, sometimes severe in nature. Respiratory distress can include but is not limited to: rales (rasping, wheezing), coughing, sneezing, nasal discharge, bubbling or discharge around the eyes, expelling mucus, and overall difficulty breathing. http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou...lasma_gallisepticum_infection_in_poultry.html

• Mold or Moldy Feed is a serious problem, as mold in grain, especially corn, is known to grow aflatoxins. Most of the aflatoxin problems on corn are caused by Aspergillus flavus, and the most potent toxin produced by this mold is called aflatoxin B1. These toxins may have degenerative effect on the nervous system of birds, causing signs similar to Marek's such as weakness, paralysis, or spasms, along with pale combs, weight loss, and lethargic behavior.... so it is very important to investigate feed, both bagged and in the bird's environment, to make sure it is fresh and free of mold. Molds may not be visible to the naked eye, so when in doubt, discard old feed and supply birds with fresh feed. If you find moldy feed or suspect moldy feed and see any changes in health in your flock, immediately discontinue access to affected feed! Read more: http://www.mycotoxins.info/myco_info/animpy_sr.html More information, and treatment: http://birdhealth.com.au/flockbirds/poultry/diseases/mould_infections.html

• Injury to the body, and especially to the head, can cause paralysis-like symptoms that look similar to Marek's. It is important to carefully check for hidden injuries, gently palpate bones for breakage, and observe your bird carefully to determine if injury is a factor. Injuries may be internal and not visible via simple physical exam. Head injuries can cause paralysis or weakness, and loss of motor control. Breeds with vaulted skulls (such as Silkies) are especially prone to brain damage, and can sustain brain injury and swelling that can create physical disability.

• Erysipelas is a bacterial disease, not common but it can affect all commonly kept fowl. Turkeys seem especially susceptible. Generally few signs appear, though birds may become weakened and may have seeming leg paralysis very shortly before death. Mortality is generally less than 15% in infected birds. Birds that succumb will generally die within 24 hours. It is very sudden. This disease is serious, and while uncommon, if you suspect it, you may wish to test it because it can infect other animals and humans (through open cuts). http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry/erysipelas/overview_of_erysipelas_in_poultry.html http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/1257/back-to-basics-pasteurella-and-erysipelas

• Pasteurellosis is also a bacterial disease. It is also not overly common, and most often seen in turkeys, but a few of the symptoms can look like Marek's disease. Lameness in the legs, difficulty breathing, and twisted neck (wry neck) are often observed, as well as loose stools and swollen wattles. http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/1257/back-to-basics-pasteurella-and-erysipelas

Where do you live? Can you consider sending your hen that passed away this morning for a necropsy? It might help you to know what was wrong, since there are so many possibilities. If you can consider necropsy, please put your hen into refrigeration (don't freeze her) until you can send her for testing.
I'm very sorry for your loss and I know how hard it is.

-Jennifer
The Great Big Giant Marek's Disease FAQ
Best wishes. I hope you find something that works.

 

[brummie]

no probs about the delay chooks, thanks again for all the great info. It was actually your cue about the cabbage that got me to look more into it and found that red cabbage has stronger cancer fighting properties/antioxidants than the green.

My chicken got real bad a couple of days after my last post. It was at point of death not able to eat anything (not even the cabbage anymore) and barley moving, all hunched and droopy. It would just take a few nibbles at the cabbage. So I got my knives out and started sharpening them to put it out of it's misery. Told my brother to come around to take photos as I do a home autopsy on it. but things got delayed with family around and I never ended up culling it that weekend. So I thought, what the heck, let's see if it can survive another week, I'll cull it next weekend.

Kept on regularly giving both red and green cabbage to the flock (at first they wouldn't touch the red, but now it's their fave) and I noticed my sick hen started to eat a little more of it everyday. Somehow or another it kept on surviving the days. About 5 days later I noticed it was eating it's pellets a little again (I did not quarantine as by now I knew whatever it is cannot be all that contagious, and I did not want to stress it out more by moving it away from it's mates and home). Still all hunched and moving very laboriously but eating better, not only pellets, but I noticed it started to eat the wheat and corn treats I threw to the rest of the flock. By now it was gobbling the cabbage and I found it was going mad on apples also.

Got ready to cull it the following weekend, but again "weekend family things" got in the way so did not have time. Made up my mind that next weekend I will definitely do it.

Next weekend has not come yet, but I don't think I will be doing any culling as almost 2 weeks later now, I am happy to say that It is doing so so much better. Clearly still ill but happily scratching about, not all that hunched (only occasionally), still looks clearly weaker than it should, not yet laying again, but eating a lot better and a lot more active. It is clearly on the mend, and I'm hoping it will make a full recovery.
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Don't know what illness it had, but I threw any natural health/healing food I could at it over the last 2 weeks. Constantly had oregano oil and ACV in water, cabbage atleast 4 days a week, apples, garlic, pumpkin seeds, raisins, sunflower seeds etc. It did start eating better and better everyday. Did any of those foods help in making it feel better? I don't know but my last 4 chickens that died with similar symptoms got the same treatment and did not survive. The only thing they did not get which this chicken did get is cabbage, so did that help? I don't know but from what I've observed and experienced I just get the feeling that the cabbage must have somehow helped, can't say for sure though, but thanks for letting me know how great they can be chooks4life.