Turkey cross-breeding speculations

[brandywine]

Goal: A large, delicious Thanksgiving bird that can be hatched out in late spring, raised ranging on pasture, and be suitable for a large family meal by November. Must be vigorous, healthy, and can be hatched and raised in a non-industrial homestead type environment.

Problem 1:

Broad-breasted breeds -- short lifespan, growth-related problems, sexually incompetent males, suicidal stupidity, genetic bottlenecks

Problem 2:

Standard breeds -- slow growth, smaller size, poorer feed-conversion ratios

Speculation: Separating the raising of "production" birds from that of purebred parent strains should enable the farmer to take advantage of hybrid vigor in the production birds while maintaining easy-care breeder flocks.

So I'm considering two experiments.

Option A:
Cross my standard breeds next spring (Bourbon reds and Narragansetts). See if the crossbred offspring grow more quickly and make a good table bird by Thanksgiving.

Option B:
Acquire some broad-breasted hens and breed them to my standard toms next year. See if the crossbred offspring grow faster than the standard parent and are also competent living out on range.

Has anyone tried the above (or had the birds try it for them)?

 

[Marion]

I think that Lilredhippie mentions some cross breeding that she is doing in page 2 of this thread..

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=206451&p=2

Maybe Lilredhippie can answer some of your questions?

 

[Harp Turkey Ranch]

How fast are you trying to grow them ??

What size are you trying to achieve ??

Standard breeds -- slow growth, smaller size, poorer feed-conversion ratios

That is not true, that is only true with poor breeding practices.

We hatch ours out in the late spring (March) and finish them out in November and they all make weights. (14-18 lbs for hens & 17-25 lbs for toms) that is 24-32 weeks of growth. These are Wishard Bronze,Bourbon Reds,Narragansett & Mottled Black Spanish. And yes the weights are all dressed weights.

You really need to find a private breeder that strives for growth and size like all the old timers did, in order to get good size birds in the time you are suppose to. It takes years of selected breeding to get a heritage turkey that will grow to a good finished weight in the 24-32 week window now days as people really don't breed for that any more. Back in the old world this was never a problem but those trait genes have been lost for the most part. There is a very few breeders now days that actually breed for standards and growth here in the US.

You can not order from a hatchery or a run of the mill private breeder and expect good results unless that is what the birds are breed for, just like any farm animal. Plus you need to feed them correctly to get what you want as well.​

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

That is exactly why the heritage turkey almost disapeared. From the early settlers each area had their own breed of turkey, from the narri's in new england to the Bourbon Red in Kentucky. If you study the history of the heritage turkey they all had a stong following and each was different, in size etc. In the 1930's the Beltsville Small White turkey was developed and bred at the USDA research station in Beltsville, MD by Stanley Marsden. They used a cross section of other turkeys to get a uniform size and fast weight gain, at it's peak the BSW was the #1 selling turkey in the US. By the mid 1950's they were over taken by the new Broad Breasted type turkey - developed for fast weight gain in the shortest period of time. Also the management style changed from pasture range to the turkey house.

Bottom line is yes you can breed any turkey for fast weight gain if that is your goal by selection and feeding high protein feed from start to finish. For others it's about conservation and breeding to the standard which has specific weight ranges for the breeds. And there are ALOT of breeders that breed to standard - go to an APA show and see just how many turkeys are there - you will be suprised. Fast weight gain is means nothing at a show.

We did the grow for " Thanksgiving market turkey" thing for about 5 years. Did they sell... yes, did we make a profit...yes. Did the whole idea of what we were doing make my stomach turn.... BIG yes. We were not much different from the local growers growing for Tyson or Carolina Turkeys except for the turkey house and the "special" feed.

Steve in NC

 

[brandywine]

Quote:
People around here start BB poults in late June for Thanksgiving finishing.

I'd be happy to be able to start the birds in May, when the weather has gotten good (this is when the wild turkeys breed and lay here, and I figure they know something, too), and have them ready by the end of November.

I'm looking for a Tom in the 18-22 pound range by third week of November.

March is problematic, as it can offer a late blizzard or just a month of nasty cold. Not a good time to start poults, even with a good barn. Terrible time to let a hen set; my chicken broodies were unable to hatch anything when they set in March.

I am not unaware of the role of selection practices in producing desired qualities in domestic animals. But I'm also not ignorant of the uses of heterosis when breeding for a terminal production generation.

Is there a reason that turkey breeders have not exploited heterosis, as have the breeders of just about every other species of livestock?

 

[brandywine]

Quote:
Yes, and ribbons for fancy points mean less than nothing on the table.

 

[Harp Turkey Ranch]

We did the grow for " Thanksgiving market turkey" thing for about 5 years. Did they sell... yes, did we make a profit...yes. Did the whole idea of what we were doing make my stomach turn.... BIG yes. We were not much different from the local growers growing for Tyson or Carolina Turkeys except for the turkey house and the "special" feed.

Well then you were doing something wrong. It makes me feel good that I know what I'm doing is saving these birds from going extinct like they almost did when everybody stopped eating them back in the 40's. You must eat them to protect/save them.

Q:You really think that many people in the US or world would just keep them as pets and they would survive ??

A: No, only recently did the market open back up for them and people started consuming them did they start to make a come back from extinction.

One thing you have wrong is in APA shows they weigh all birds and if they are not in the correct weight ranges for their age and breed they dock BIG points. Last one I attended most birds didn't make the weight and if they did they were all in the low end. Size points are a big part of the scoring system at shows and they dock big points when they don't make weights. Plus ribbons mean nothing when you are feeding your family or somebody else's.

But you are right Frank Reese and Mike Walters don't have a clue what they are doing and when they breed for size and growth in one of their criteria in their breeding stock they are just plain dumb as they are only two of the world's best breeders according to the ALBC, and people pay big bucks to see a class with either one in them and try to do what they do, but you got it figured out ?? They don't.

They way we raise ours is strictly to the standards and they all are in the correct weight ranges in the proper time frame, all from the book.

If you read the old timers stories they all weighed high teens to mid 20's on all the breeds that were available back then in the 24-32 week window, now days you be lucky to get one with out proper breeding to teens in the 24-32 week window.

Wes Harp in WA

Edited to remove nasty comments...quit the sniping, boys! ​

 

[Harp Turkey Ranch]

I'd be happy to be able to start the birds in May, when the weather has gotten good (this is when the wild turkeys breed and lay here, and I figure they know something, too), and have them ready by the end of November.

I'm looking for a Tom in the 18-22 pound range by third week of November.

You would then need to get a standard bronze type or a white Holland bird as these two get the biggest the fastest. That would give you 6-7 months to grow in and the hens would be on your smaller size and the toms would be ion your bigger end or more.

Toms of other large breeds that are breed right will make those weights. But the hens will be more like 14-17 lbs in that time frame, but they will make it.

It's all in what you want a scrawny show bird that be lucky to weigh 15lbs alive in 8 months or a nice good size bird that weighs 18-22 lbs in the same time Dressed??​

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Quote:
Well then you were doing something wrong. It makes me feel good that I know what I'm doing is saving these birds from going extinct like they almost did when everybody stopped eating them back in the 40's. You must eat them to protect/save them.

Q:You really think that many people in the US or world would just keep them as pets and they would survive ??

A: No, only recently did the market open back up for them and people started consuming them did they start to make a come back from extinction.

One thing you have wrong is in APA shows they weigh all birds and if they are not in the correct weight ranges for their age and breed they dock BIG points. Last one I attended most birds didn't make the weight and if they did they were all in the low end. Size points are a big part of the scoring system at shows and they dock big points when they don't make weights. Plus ribbons mean nothing when you are feeding your family or somebody else's.

But you are right Frank Reese and Mike Walters don't have a clue what they are doing and when they breed for size and growth in one of their criteria in their breeding stock they are just plain dumb as they are only two of the world's best breeders according to the ALBC, and people pay big bucks to see a class with either one in them and try to do what they do, but you got it figured out ?? They don't.

They way we raise ours is strictly to the standards and they all are in the correct weight ranges in the proper time frame, all from the book.

If you read the old timers stories they all weighed high teens to mid 20's on all the breeds that were available back then in the 24-32 week window, now days you be lucky to get one with out proper breeding to teens in the 24-32 week window.

A little history would do a mind good sometimes, really know the facts of what one speaks before one talks is always better then speaking out ones rear.

Wes Harp in WA

Edited to remove comments....take the fight to PM, guys!

Steve in NC​

 

[speckledhen]

I have cleaned up this thread and do NOT want this personal fight to continue in open forum. Harp and Sands, go to your respective corners and do not send barbs at each other again. Some folks just do better avoiding each other. brandywine, here is your thread back. Hopefully, it will stay on track now.